[ahbaumgardner]

If I were younger and of college age, I would do this and consider it my education. Too bad that PELL grants cannot be used.

And I know people who have one day off from their WS position and spend that day teaching lessons at various locations, etc. and they also get up at the crack of dawn and go muck out 20 stall barns before 7 am...

If there is a will and a way, it can happen. I would bet that a very talented applicant could brainstorm with Boyd regarding ways to make it work....

Ann (who had over $50k of college student loans by the time she got her doctorate)

[kcmel]

I thought it was hilarious. Some folks need to find their humor bone and hang out with it for a while.

I thought it was pretty funny, but only in the "he's such an ass" kind of way!

[ahbaumgardner]

I agree. I found it humorous.... and COTH does have quite a reputation for posters getting their "panties in a wad."

Or maybe they want people who do NOT sit around posting on COTH via tablet, computer, or phone, when they should be using both hands to get work done.

I took it as tongue in cheek....

I thought it was hilarious, but then I can recognize when someone's being tongue in cheek.

I suspect, though, that it's not really aimed at someone like me, but at the sort of person who would get all panty wadded over a joke reference to a thread on which people got all aflutter over his right to run a WS gig as he sees fit. Sort of a shorthand way of saying "If you've got no sense of humor, you need not apply."

[Lisamarie8]

Like most things, it's funny because it's true.

Exhibit A: This thread.
Exhibit B: Other Threads.

I'm not going to pretend to be Boyd's inner-monologue, but if I had to hazard a guess I would guess he's talking about the afore mentioned Panty-Waddedness that is often found on COTHBB...and those who suffer from said affliction.

[enjoytheride]

LOL, very funny. And an important reminder that even the "famous" people read COTH.

I think it's a difficult position to be in, people on COTH are allowed to bash anybody they please but if that person comes on to set things straight they get in even more trouble.

[ahbaumgardner]

That is certainly the "reputation" with which I am familiar. The complaint I hear is that people anonymously bash others, especially famous persons (wasn't there some thread bashing KOC?) and those people do have feelings and do get hurt. And the reaction is sometimes that COTHers who do so, know nothing, and are sitting on their pedestals bashing those who do.

For those who do this, please do not shoot the messenger.

For those who do not, I would assume you know what I am talking about.

I am new to this forum. I do find it quite interesting that people post anonymously. I choose not to (hence the ahbaumgardner and kirkwood sporthorses), because if I can't put my name to something I say, then I figure it is not worthy of sharing.

Thankful that the red thumbs are gone! They do sting!

I think it's a difficult position to be in, people on COTH are allowed to bash anybody they please but if that person comes on to set things straight they get in even more trouble.

[baxtersmom]

It is, of course, entirely possible to have a well-developed sense of humor and to simultaneously think a "joke" was badly-executed and in poor taste.

[KellyS]

Ditto Baxtersmom!

[ahbaumgardner]

Agreed, Mom of Baxter and Kelly!

And it could be a well-executed joke, IF she had added some sort of qualifier! I am not sure, off-hand, what that qualifier would be....but I can imagine that some reference to COTH, previous critiques etc., might bring a chuckle

[retreadeventer]

I'd like to weigh in.

Boyd, Boyd....not very nice to take a swipe at COTH. I know this board is very exasperating at times, but it's also been a pretty great place to find friends and knowledge, too. I understand the comment -- but in terms of looking for a good working student, offering some other information probably is more helpful.

In regard to working student positions in general - in order for something to be an "education", qualified people need to be teaching it. As in credentialled or approved or registered. In eventing we have the ICP program to qualify teachers. There is also university degrees and higher learning at the college level, resulting in credentials. I know eventers with bachelor's degrees, masters, degrees, and many on COTH with doctorates. Boyd's formal education pales in comparison. (As do many of our top level equestrian professionals.)

However, the experience of one of America's top international event riders is immense, and I have no doubt that a student position in his barn would help you learn more about the sport in a quick immersion period than you'd get in years doing it on your own or with lessons from your local pro. There is no substitute in the equestrian world for the knowledge you get working in a large barnful of competing horses. I know. I have a college degree in the field (Agriculture), have worked as a working student, and have operated a large barn of competing (race) horses, in addition to hiring and training new and inexperienced employees. Almost nothing I did in my prior 20 years with horses prepared me for running a 45-horse barn. You can talk about it forever but until you've experienced a day in that life, you can't figure it out from a textbook.

My feeling is a student position needs to be carefully looked at from the educational aspect. What will you learn, how will you learn it, is the time period sufficient to reach the educational goals, and will the learning be of quality commensurate with the cost? Without credentials and a track history of the educational institution (which can be a professional stable) you have very little to go on in order to make your decision about getting an eventing education. Much of what is on a website is a sales pitch.

What has to be done is your own research and compile facts. Who are past working students, what have they accomplished? Do their results mirror your goals? I think that is the way to determine if a WS position is what the pro offering it says it is. Because it really is just their say-so without educational credentials, or detailed information.

Because labor law investigators don't tend to notice the horse industry problem of uncompensated workers, the WS system survives. It's borderline illegal and it needs to be fixed. I know a trainer personally who was sued and LOST over a working student system and this is not a joke and can cost a trainer a fortune. Labor laws are serious business and strictly speaking how most trainers set up working student programs are pretty much against federal and state labor laws, from what I understand from friends in the know.

It would be nice to see our eventing organizations set up credentialled educational guidelines for working student compliance. Most of our top riders probably already have wonderful programs in place that have been working, and one would not have to reinvent the wheel but just document what is being learned, and categorize the levels as well as perhaps create short, pony-club-like knowledge tests for working students. Once you've tested past certain levels you have a credential that proves your knowledge going forward and can help you get a job or add to your resume. (There I go again....ideas.....can't help it....)

It would solve a lot of problems and probably help keep a healthy pipeline of young talented kids moving into our top ranks as well as helping our current top riders fill their needs, too.

(In my personal view, COTH is worth more than just a complaint listing. We can make a difference in a good way with our discussions here.)

[SnicklefritzG]

Some people have suggested that Boyd was trying to be funny. Well there are times when humor is not appropriate and this is one of them.

He could have said "sense of humor is required for this position". That's not too difficult.

[JSjumper]

Some people have suggested that Boyd was trying to be funny. Well there are times when humor is not appropriate and this is one of them.

He could have said "sense of humor is required for this position". That's not too difficult.

Why was it such an inappropriate place for humor? It's HIS job listing, for HIS farm, trying to convey the type of person that would fit into HIS program. Obviously a sense of humor is needed for the job, so someone who didn't take it as such need not apply. I don't see what the huge issue with that is.

[JanWeber]

Many ULRs charge board or for housing for their working students. The tricky part is making sure you really DO get the lessons and opportunities that are presented as your "pay" for the experience. Too many working students muck stalls and clean tack for a twice-a-week lesson with an assistant trainer.

[ahbaumgardner]

Well, I worked my a$$ off through grad school as a research and teaching assistant... probably amounting to well less than minimum wage... and I was still responsible for tuition etc. I have no problem with this program. And if you really look at it from a barter standpoint, what is the cost of a private lesson with Boyd? How does that translate to hours worked per day? And in addition to the lessons, one gets informal lessons and gets to audit training sessions in exchange.

Do the math. It's a great deal. I would take it in a heartbeat if I could borrow, beg, steal, and wasn't this old!

[Justa Bob]

^ ^ ^ Why was it such an inappropriate place for humor? Because humor is an art and not everyone can pull it off. And when it isn't clear that what is written IS humor it can come across as sarcasm, a nasty dig, or a pile of stink. Using humor in a business advert, esp when the humor is easily misunderstood, make people wonder about the professionalism and decision-making of the owners.

COTHers may love to get their judgy pants on -- but many lurkers and members donate to their favorite eventers. Horse syndicates are pretty pricey and UL eventers don't want to alienate their supporters.

[baxtersmom]

[monstrpony]

The joke could have been worded so that it worked better. Shucks. However, anyone who applies for that position isn't going with the intention to learn facility with the English language, so I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I do disagree with the comment (on their blog, one of the replies) that we COTHers shouldn't take pot shots at people in defenseless positions. We'd welcome Boyd coming on here to defend his WS program, if he felt he had been so seriously abused by this or other threads. Or, he could do the smart thing, and just ignore us ...

[JER]

I took it as humor -- and also an effective way to drum up interest. Here we are talking about it.

Put another way, the only thing worse than having everyone talking about you is having no one talking about you.

The complaint I hear is that people anonymously bash others, especially famous persons (wasn't there some thread bashing KOC?) and those people do have feelings and do get hurt. And the reaction is sometimes that COTHers who do so, know nothing, and are sitting on their pedestals bashing those who do.

Eventing is a sport. There's no reason why it shouldn't be treated like a real sport in terms of how people talk/argue/discuss. That's what real passion for sport looks like online -- enthusiasm for mulling over all aspects of eventing, the good and the bad, the funny and the serious. Truly inappropriate comments usually meet with correction measures and hearty smackdowns.

I find it hard to believe that 'famous persons' in our sport can fly over frightening solid obstacles yet fall to pieces if they read anything less that high praise about themselves.

Also, I really, really resent the notion or assumption that anyone on this BB 'knows nothing'. We're all here because we love horses and participate in eventing in various ways. Experience with horses is experience with horses. It's a great equalizer, regardless of the levels at which you compete.

[SnicklefritzG]

Why was it such an inappropriate place for humor? It's HIS job listing, for HIS farm, trying to convey the type of person that would fit into HIS program. Obviously a sense of humor is needed for the job, so someone who didn't take it as such need not apply. I don't see what the huge issue with that is.

I think a lot of people took issue with Boyd poking fun at COTH. Not professional.

[enjoytheride]

I don't think it's about knowing nothing, it's about thinking you know everything and that everyone else knows nothing.