[EventingJ]

holy crap, that's a lot of money.... he really takes in account he would be LOSING money giving lessons to a WS? I can understand having to pay towards board (feed/hay/bedding or something like that, or offering pasture board only). I have been a WS, my close friends have been WS - none of us have ever paid to be a WS. My close friend was a WS for an Olympic eventer, while she did not have a horse to board, she certainly did not PAY to be a WS (although there WERE WS there that DID pay). And yes, she did spend a winter down south in Fl and did not pay for room/board (I'm not sure about food, I'm thinking that was included too, since shes poor like me!).

Anyways, no doubt he will not have problems finding someone to fill the position, even in this economy someone with parents $$ and support backing them will leap at this

[mswillie]

Caring for horses 6-7hrs a day is a cakewalk (to the pro's).
Theres plenty of time to attend to oneself, ones horses and still find time for outside *work*...as suggested, braiding, clipping, so many options! When folks see a person willing to be part of the whole, it all falls into place.

The ad says extremely long hours, 6-7 days a week. Not 6-7 hours/day. To me extremely long hours is more like 12+/day.

[tres grey]

I'm having trouble grasping whether really any working student position is an internship (re: wage) or a college-equivalent educational opportunity (re: tuition). These words are interchanged too often here, and I think they mean different things. I'm using this post to work out a couple logistics for myself.

I guess the deciding factor for me is if the WS is experienced or not. Have they been in other large barns, groomed for high performance horses, etc.? In college, we pay the professors (re: trainers/horsemen) to teach us the tricks of our chosen profession. If I had come freshly to my first WS position, of course I'd put in the classroom (re: barn) hours plus extra out-of-class time. (What is the phrase? For every class hour spent, you need to spend at least two hours outside of class practicing a week?) Think about it. You bust your butt in college and pay to do so. An inexperienced WS should do the exact same thing, IMHO, if they want to learn about their profession.

However, lets say a college-equivalent of a rising-Junior student with a solid recommendations and previous work experience is inquiring. With a solid resume for their level of work experience, I would not make them pay, especially if its a short period of time. After all, with that horsemanship experience, they'd be making your life a bit easier.

Or perhaps the guidelines need to be reworded. I'm a college student, and I'm in another profession where unpaid internships are the norm. This past summer, I completed a 3 month, unpaid internship. My boss saw my college portfolio (previous work that I paid for with my tuition), liked my personality, and arranged an agreement for me to help out and learn. Our agreement was that I worked 30 hours/5 days a week for free; anything over that I'd be paid $10/hour (which happened maybe twice). My housing, food, and transportation was all dependent on me. What was nice is that, in general, I had a set amount of hours, which allowed me to pick up a second job to fund myself. I think this sort of restructuring would help Boyd's case. Set an exact number of hours and in exchange you get A, B, C. However, you are responsible for D, E, F. If hours go over, compensation.

I think it depends on Boyd and what caliber of student he wants. Does he want someone that he can mold to his ways, but cost him a little more stress? Or does he want someone who's had their basic ropes brought on by other qualified horsemen? If its the first, my all means, set up a tuition. The second, provide some other fair way. Either way, I think these students would have the core foundations/personalities he wants (hard-working, honest, polite, prompt, etc.) if just depends on how much experience he needs to enjoy it himself.

I hope I've made my points clear. I'm trying to be concise without turning this too much into a book.

[brightskyfarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brightskyfarm
Caring for horses 6-7hrs a day is a cakewalk (to the pro's).
Theres plenty of time to attend to oneself, ones horses and still find time for outside *work*...as suggested, braiding, clipping, so many options! When folks see a person willing to be part of the whole, it all falls into place.

The ad says extremely long hours, 6-7 days a week. Not 6-7 hours/day. To me extremely long hours is more like 12+/day.
.

the point> ( *I* work in a barn that trains 24horses in that time period with only 4 grooms).....so what you *work* even 7days a week...to spend that time with horses and trainers at this level? What do you think you'd be doing if you were a professional?
.
It doesnt take that long to manage a barn in training hours, doing stalls while horses are out, bath and cool out -- Im sure Boyds barn has this down to a science.
.
In a long day are the students lessons. I was making the case it wouldnt be any longer than putting in a normal working day then riding afterwards --- look at your currrent day... how much time is spent between work&horses........
.
Even 12hrs a day would be a "died and gone to heaven" experience for someone fulfilling their passion to be around folks and horses at this level.
Example: when grooms at the track finish their day, and a horse in the barn is racing ...guess what? they go watch the race! Why? why not? think on it.
.
Im off to *work*....yes, its thanksgiving -- going riding with friends/family & dinner is after ...oh, I also have night feed, desert is after that --- you simply plan your life around what you love (right?)

[equinedriver]

I was shocked that he expects the WS to pay for a stall and accommodations. I assumed that that was what you were working off. I can understand not paying them, but expecting them to work 6 to 7 long days AND pay for the privilege was a surprise to me..........

[judybigredpony]

I would rather wait to actually hear from one of his former WS......think its gonna be a long wait....

[Highflyer]

Realistically, the reason he has this arrangement is because he CAN. The reason other trainers do not is because they are unlikely to find people to pay that kind of money.

I've found Boyd to be really nice at events-- very happy to answer a question about the best route through a combination and quick to offer you a ride in his golf cart when you are staggering under a load of tack. You're not necessarily going to learn anything there you wouldn't learn from a slightly less BNT, but I bet he's a lot of fun to work for, and when you finish you can say you were a working student for him...

And really-- this is what you are paying for. Kind of like how you can get a really good education at Harvard, or you can get a really good education at many state universities paying in state tuition, or you can get a really good education going for two years at a local junior college and then transferring to an in state university, but only one of these costs $200,000 for four years and only one of them allows you to reminisce about Harvard and how many US presidents went there

Realistically, by the time you pay for supplements and vet bills and shoeing and entry fees and things, never mind health insurance and car insurance and gas and a cell phone and buying tampax and shampoo and horse treats, being a working student is likely to cost you $500- $1k/ month above and beyond room and board for you and your horse. It's not for the poor. We have jobs.

[Muleskick]

Sounds like a whole lot of work for a few lessons (with the staff mainly not even the man himelf). You will learn how to be a groom at a top notch facility but I am guessing with this much of a work load your riding oppertunities would be few and far between which seems to happen in alot of working student situations. If you have a bankroll and don't need a job with income and want to get a taste of being worked like a dog by an outfit with a big name, at a nice facility where it is warm for the winter go for it. It will look good on a resume if you want a future eventing job. Otherwise keep looking for another position that pays.

[klc]

I wonder if he has to charge that for board because he doesn't own the barn and that is what the owner makes him pay. My daughter is wanting to do a gap year as a working student next year and we are looking into trainers now. I certainly can't do something like Boyd's program though.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Just to be clear, is it $35/day for a dry stall?

No that I'm sure includes everything basic. Note this position only costs to the extent you bring a horse AND costs a lot less than if you sent a horse south with Boyd. So the WS is working off some of those costs. I'm not sure I understand people's issues.

[Badger]

He has to rent the barn and facilities from the owner who is running it as a business. The costs listed in his reply are hard costs he has to cover for any horse using the property.

If someone wants the Aiken experience, they can find a place to board, leg up in the Woods, and trailer in for lessons where and when they can be worked in. Or they can board in a top facility and pay usage fees to use the great dressage ring, new xc playground, and wonderful trails. And pay for a place to stay and pay for lessons. For someone who wants this experience and doesn't mind the workload, Boyd is offering the opportunity to work off PART of the co$t of that same Aiken experience: almost 1/3 of the board and all of the almost daily lessons. Plus, that person is going to learn a ton about horse care, stable management, conditioning, riding, training, dealing with owners and clients, etc., all in exchange for the sort of sweat equity most of us put into our home barns anyway. It's not for everyone, but when you want the intense learning experience and run the numbers, working your butt off and paying to do it can make economical sense. And these experiences aren't just for teenagers, either. I did my working student stint after being laid off from a 22-year career. I finally had time and I jumped at the chance to immerse myself in a learning environment and I'm glad I did. Don't count your middle-aged bodies short: you can make up for some off that raw 20-year-old energy with your experience and efficiency. Being a WS is no harder than being an ammy working a full time job plus doing your own horsecare and riding afterhours. In many ways it is easier as there is no commute. Boyd is offering an intense learning experience at a great facility at a greatly reduced rate in exchange for some sweat equity.

One caveat to anyone looking at a WS position, talk to previous WSs and be sure that WS do get the promised lessons. If the program you are considering skimps on WS lessons, look elsewhere.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Just to be clear, is it $35/day for a dry stall?

I wonder if he has to charge that for board because he doesn't own the barn and that is what the owner makes him pay. My daughter is wanting to do a gap year as a working student next year and we are looking into trainers now. I certainly can't do something like Boyd's program though.

Doesn't matter. A WS's horse takes the spot of a full paying training horse.

If the deal doesn't seem fair, then no one needs to do it. No one has a right to be a WS.

Would I do it?... No. But I don't care if someone else does.

[klc]

I understand the cost now a little better. He does have to cover what it is costing him to rent the barn. He can't afford to just give the income from that stall away. A trainer that already has their own facility probably doesn't have the kind of costs that Boyd does renting a top notch facility, and can offer a WS position for a lot less.

[Muleskick]

Do keep in mind the work load this "student" will do will more then off set the loss of one training stall especially with the student paying 35$ a day. Win win for the trainer, work work for the student. As short term as this job is it looks more like sesonal laber then a real oppertunity to do much learning. But if he can get somebody to do all that for that little he should consider a second career..

[teddygirl]

As much as I hate to interrupt the regularly scheduled COTH Boyd-bashing, this sounds pretty much in line with similar working student positions. Some charge more, some less. For the right person it's great. For everyone else, move on

[catosis]

Honestly, this whole thing has made me lose a little respect for the Martins. Every other WS position I have encountered (even the one I tried out for with Anne Gribbons, toughest lady in the dressage industry) covers housing and provides a small stipend. To whoever takes this position: Have fun being exploited for the honor of being in the presence of Boyd Martin.

[flutie1]

Look at it from another angle. What would it cost two people to go to college on scholarships and have to hold part time jobs? Count one horse and one rider as two students, one of which has to hold the equivalent of two part time jobs. (Horses are lousy at holding down part time jobs!) I think the education one would receive at the Martins would be invaluable for someone striving to learn.

[catosis]

Look at it from another angle. What would it cost two people to go to college on scholarships and have to hold part time jobs? Count one horse and one rider as two students, one of which has to hold the equivalent of two part time jobs. (Horses are lousy at holding down part time jobs!) I think the education one would receive at the Martins would be invaluable for someone striving to learn.

Unfortunately, though, a working student position on a resume looks much less impressive than a degree from Wake Forest. The horse industry, has taken a big hit what with the economy and all, and things aren't going to start looking up for quite a while. At lease someone who goes to college can go on to med school, etc., etc. and have something to show for it in the end. The only thing Boyd's slave will end up with is an aching body at the end of the day and permission to ride their own horse.

[flutie1]

Unfortunately, though, a working student position on a resume looks much less impressive than a degree from Wake Forest. The horse industry, has taken a big hit what with the economy and all, and things aren't going to start looking up for quite a while. At lease someone who goes to college can go on to med school, etc., etc. and have something to show for it in the end. The only thing Boyd's slave will end up with is an aching body at the end of the day and permission to ride their own horse.

Your argument makes sense, but desn't present the whole picture. The person going to Boyd's possibly has no desire or aptitude to go to college, med school whatever. Perhaps the horse industry is what they aspire to. If so, why not go where they can get a great education - or if anything, they can find that it isn't for them after all? The hours a WS keeps are not unlike those kept by anyone doing horses for a living.

[sisu27]

Do all of you bashing and "loosing" (lose not loose people!!) respect for Boyd think this is exclusive to his WS program? Sounds pretty similar to most BNRs to me.

Do you pay for an education? Does your school cover your accommodations? Food? Transportation? How is this any different?

The negative comments all stink of sour grapes, laziness and constant excuses to me.