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  1. #41
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    on the other hand, even the top horse can have an off day and spook at a butterfly.

    Usually once the situation is known things settle down.

    But seriously, the one rider infamous for winnign all her classes, she was not a little girl. She was a grown professional (MD). Ok, so her husband and BIL were judges...but they actually had the reputation of being good teachers and judges. That one baffles me 30 years after the fact. (the BIL actually excused a a regional BNT from the ring for presenting a horse that was clearly not capable of performing that day and the rider was not able to leave him alone...rare moment)

    But seriously, being national points winner then going 4H...that's pretty sad!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by abrant View Post
    I fail to see how WINNING is a life skill.

    To that coach and the director of my school plays, get over yourself, it's high school when kids should be given the opportunity to try new things and decide what excites them. A state championship or a broadway quality play? That's all very much adult ego.
    Are you serious? Winning IS a life skill. Learning to cope with loss is also a life skill. Understanding the importance of winning IS important. WINNING translates to success: more money, more prestige, more resources, more opportunities. Learning that WINNING doesn't just HAPPEN is critical.

    I do not, for one second, accept your "I wasn't good enough, but I should have been allowed to do stuff over the more talented kids, because winning isn't important, it's the experience" Why should you be allowed to have a spot on the cast, team, crew because it's "your turn" and some other more deserving kid should get benched?

    I fail to see how that teach any life lessons at all.

    I never made the track team (no physical ability even if I hadn't had that knee tumor), I couldn't sing for crap (would never see me making the cast for a play!) and a lot of other things in school, but I *never* sat there and said "it's my turn, it's my turn! Lemme lemme!"

    I'm sorry, perhaps I just have a little more dignity and self-respect then to expect someone to hand me something because well, gee, you tried. No, thank you, I will EARN it.

    To put my feelings another way:

    I own a small business. This makes us eligible for "women owned" loan programs, grants, that sort of thing.

    The idea of those programs makes me feel horribly diminished as a person.

    Because I am a WOMAN, I need special consideration? I need special help? I need a handout? My vagina is some kind of handicap?

    I feel insulted, diminished and marginalized at the very suggestion that *I* need a handout because I have a vagina. I do not need a pat on the head and a cookie and an "awww, we know. You're a woman. Here, have some money earmarked just for YOU"

    So that's how I feel about this sort of "let everyone win" and "you should be ashamed if you're the winner" and "you won, now it's Stupid's turn"
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings



  3. #43
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    you don' need to learn a lot to win.

    or rather it does not take a lot to have an appreciation for a win.
    Losing is a real problem for some.

    Not everybody is like me (or most on the forum): I rather lose a good match than winning a bad one.
    Honestly.

    But there is success that counts and some that is nice to have but does not put a roof over your head or anything else tangible in your hand.

    winning is fun. it puts a smile on your face.
    losing...it takes some work to still smile when you lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post

    But there is success that counts and some that is nice to have but does not put a roof over your head or anything else tangible in your hand.
    .
    .........................

    /**************
    Edit: sorry, I misread that Ala was talking about two types of success. Have left my original response intact below. Apologies for RAGE POST.

    ***************/

    Then what does? Your welfare check leeched off someone else's success?
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings



  5. #45
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    I'm only putting this up as a previous poster mentioned racing.

    A somewhat similar thing happened in racing in the Breeders' Cup last month. Goldikova was going for her 4th straight win in the Mile. She finished 3rd but should have been placed last. Any other horse would have been. Yet while everyone knew this nobody wanted her taken down. Right or wrong very hard really. There was a mare that so many people followed who drew fans to the sport and was not whisked off to the breeding shed. She gave her heart every time she ran. I did not see much fall out from the decision. At the end if the day the stewards ruled.

    But racing is totally different when you have the betting public to protect. No comparison. Pretty much frowned upon defrauding the public!

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by littleum View Post
    .........................

    /**************
    Edit: sorry, I misread that Ala was talking about two types of success. Have left my original response intact below. Apologies for RAGE POST.

    ***************/

    Then what does? Your welfare check leeched off someone else's success?

    Well I was not making myself very clear I am afraid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by littleum View Post
    Are you serious? Winning IS a life skill. Learning to cope with loss is also a life skill. Understanding the importance of winning IS important. WINNING translates to success: more money, more prestige, more resources, more opportunities. Learning that WINNING doesn't just HAPPEN is critical.

    I do not, for one second, accept your "I wasn't good enough, but I should have been allowed to do stuff over the more talented kids, because winning isn't important, it's the experience" Why should you be allowed to have a spot on the cast, team, crew because it's "your turn" and some other more deserving kid should get benched?

    I fail to see how that teach any life lessons at all.

    I never made the track team (no physical ability even if I hadn't had that knee tumor), I couldn't sing for crap (would never see me making the cast for a play!) and a lot of other things in school, but I *never* sat there and said "it's my turn, it's my turn! Lemme lemme!"

    I'm sorry, perhaps I just have a little more dignity and self-respect then to expect someone to hand me something because well, gee, you tried. No, thank you, I will EARN it.

    To put my feelings another way:

    I own a small business. This makes us eligible for "women owned" loan programs, grants, that sort of thing.

    The idea of those programs makes me feel horribly diminished as a person.

    Because I am a WOMAN, I need special consideration? I need special help? I need a handout? My vagina is some kind of handicap?

    I feel insulted, diminished and marginalized at the very suggestion that *I* need a handout because I have a vagina. I do not need a pat on the head and a cookie and an "awww, we know. You're a woman. Here, have some money earmarked just for YOU"

    So that's how I feel about this sort of "let everyone win" and "you should be ashamed if you're the winner" and "you won, now it's Stupid's turn"
    Then, there have been times in societies where being a woman meant you were married off according to the needs and wishes of your family, could not own property, run a business, be admitted to some courses in universities, that were restricted to males, could not vote, some of that not so long ago.

    When it was obvious I was not going back home, my father threatened to have the police return me, at 36 years old!
    As an unmarried woman, he had the legal right to run my life.
    I quickly got my citizenship papers.

    I do agree with you that, when acquiring equal rights, no one should then need handouts to get there, especially on the backs of others, as some programs are.
    That is a bit like winning undeservedly by handicapping others.

    At least in the horse world, there is equality, according to what you achieve.
    If you "speak" horse, your sex in itself is generally not important.



  8. #48
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    On a little side note: Equestrian sports are the only ones where men and women can compete against each other at the same level, from the bottom to the Olympics. Mares, stallions and geldings are on the same level as well!

    What is most important in life is the desire of moving forward. Same applies to horses being ridden.



  9. #49
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    Some of this has wandered rather far afield. I think a lot of 'it' comes down to competitiveness and sportsmanship.

    Regarding competitiveness. A lot of venues, in life and in horses, are competitive. Bring your 'A' game, and whoever performs the best that day, wins. Often natural talent and funding play a role. Whether you consider that fair or not, that's life. Suck it up, buttercup.

    *However* there are other competitive venues that are meant to be inclusive first, competitive second. Things like recreational sports leagues and equine fun shows. The goal is to allow everyone to participate, often with the understanding that the norm is 'average' ability. Now, when a team brings in a pro as a ringer, or someone brings a highly-ranked show horse to a fun show to trounce all the trail horses and recreational riders and scoop up all the blues... Eh. I guess the lesson is life still isn't fair, and some people have to win at any cost.


    Then, as a whole 'nother topic, there is sportsmanship. I think most of us agree that winning or losing gracefully is a very good thing to learn. As is being able to be take pride in the things you did right, and consider honestly the places you need to improve. That's is good sportsmanship. People like to see it just as much as they dislike seeing bad sportsmanship.

    I'll give you a horse-related example of bad (details are vague to protect the innocent, but it's true). This was an adult polo team. For teams to play each other, someone has to put in the time and money to haul horses and players somewhere else for the weekend. Team A and Team B were about 6 hours apart. Team B, a weaker team, hauled out. Since there's a general shortage of players, it's not unusual to for small clubs to arrange chukkas to include everyone, while challenging the better players and making a competitive game. Instead, Team A--who should have won regardless--brought in a ringer, provided umpires that called only against Team B, and engaged in a great deal of rudeness and trash talking and basically did their level best to utterly humiliate their 'guests'. Team B would have been okay spending hundreds of dollars to play hard and endure a graceful loss. Instead, Team A behaved like total a**hats.

    Being realistic about the competitiveness of your venue and sportsmanship. Pretty useful life skills to get from our hobbies, IMO.



  10. #50
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    I don't think it should be padded. Winning is winning and losing is losing as far as a team goes. However, I do believe sportmanship should be shown on both sides of it. Nobody needs to trash the other team. I think parents also need to stress personal best situations. I watched a swim meet where a little girl was dead last by a long shot and she got out the pool smiling because she had beat her personal best. My heart melted when her teammates and members of other teams congratulated her on her accomplishment. Another swimmer that won got out with a "queen like" additude and second place tried to shake her hand and she turned away. I know who the winner in life was there.

    I know of a family that bought expensive trained horses for their children and taught how to sit pretty. They won everything against the backyard bunch. They were big fish in a little pond. They enjoyed belittling the children with less quality horses. Then they moved onto breed shows and couldn't even place they were mad. Bad judge, etc. Blamed everyone but themselves. Some of those kids riding the backyard horses have done quite well for themselves now. They actually know how to train the horses they are now riding. They are making good money selling them to the ones that used to beat the pants off them. Go figure, huh?



  11. #51
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    I would have expected the winning team to be better prepared to practice sportsmanship.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  12. #52
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    Well, this is not limited to teens/children teams. Anyone remember the last Olympics when the Canadian women's team was winning double digits games vs. 0 and the cry was there had to be two different leagues because the Cdn and the US teams were too strong?

    I remember when my daughter was showing locally with her barn and the coaches were competing against her and another rider. Fine, but don't come back gloating and bragging that "you kids still have a lot to learn"... and pocketing the prize! Parents from all the barns were disgusted and asked that coaches did not compete against their own students (not for the challenge but for the attitude and somehow nobody dared tell them the real reason). Useless to say, we moved out of that barn. I guess they missed on the teaching part and acted like 10 year olds.



  13. #53
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    A team of 14-17 yr olds who are being coached like they are 5. Guess what Mom & Dad, you chose to put your kid on the losing team. Deal with it.

    At least these kids where slaughtered by first stringers, as opposed to being creamed by the benchwarmers. Nothing except a coaching change on the losing team would have changed the outcome.

    The losers need to learn something about sportsmanship - if you play to lose, don't complain when it happens.



  14. #54
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    I meet a lot of young people who are not competitive enough. I hand them a work assignment to do in Excel, they shrug and say I don't know how to do that. My answer (using my inside voice- meaning the one in my head) is 'so? Go figure it out'. If you don't learn how to push yourself and try and apply, I suppose the answer is 'I don't know how'.

    Those kids who show up at a 'real' horse show and expect to be given special consideration b/c their horse isn't as 'fancy' or 'trained' or 'seasoned' as the other kid's horses...are not learning how to cope with the realities of the world. When I go to work, I don't get special consideration - I get handed stuff to do. If I hit a roadblock I am supposed to find my way around, through, under, or over it. That's life. Showing, competing, team or individual...you are signing up for challenges, not play dates! You are supposed to be learning how to give and do your best, work your butt off, and see what happens. As my trainer used to put it 'We may not win anything but we'll By God look good!' and off we'd go. I didn't have the best of anything but what I had I polished and cleaned and did my best. I rode a dressage test in a show this Spring and immediately went off course...and I rode and I rode and I rode and finally I said wait- I'm on the wrong long side! So I cobbled the maneuvers together, saluted, and rode to the judge. She got the biggest kick out of it, saying she knew I was off course, but was waiting for me to notice- (just a schooling show). When I didn't, and I just rode it like I stole it- she doubted herself on which test she was judging, like maybe the test sheet was wrong! We had the biggest laugh.

    Get out there and compete- I'm there to ride and do my best, against MY own self. Those girls wanting slack to be cut? Garbage.



  15. #55
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    I mean, sure, we grow on our challenges.
    That does not mean that when you get the L to the forehead every time you do something the learning appeal wears off in a hurry.

    So yeah, ride like you mean it, bring your best and see what comes out.

    but when you know you are in a stacked field....
    no, let me rephrase that: Even when you know you are in a stacked field you can still do your best and enjoy your accomplishments.
    but it is thoroughly unnecessary to have the ringers gloat.

    Had a girl tell me her band director told her to quit because she was messing up the perfect middle school band. Wow, what a tool.

    Even at the mid/late teen phase, yes, kids can take their lumps. They can even take a slaughter.
    but poor sportmanship will stick with them. It won't be the losses that sours them for the sport, but the attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDE Driver View Post
    I suspect that you may find the attitude of "let the other team feel good about themselves" in a lot of children's sports these days. I do not agree with it. I think it is raising a whole generation of people that don't get the concept of working hard to succeed.
    This.


    I was very unpopular in my 4-H group because I didn't have mommy and daddy buying me the best trained horse, lessons with BNT, and the top of the line trendiest equipment.

    I saved my money that I worked for, bought my own unbroken horses and rode with plain tack (safe, but plain) and worked very hard for my lessons. I would win some classes, not others. Not once did I ask them to be easy on me. I just worked harder and started winning more, and that pissed off the rich girls. I didn't care. I worked hard for what I earned.

    If people take it easy on others, how are they going to learn how to deal when they lose, and how will they learn to work harder? People need to realize life isn't always fair, put your 40 grit underwear on and deal with it. That's what I teach my own kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by dizzywriter View Post
    My saddle fits perfectly well. It might be a little tight around the waist, but I take care of that with those spandex things.



  17. #57
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    I think there may be an interesting connection between this thread and some of the ones discussing the riders at Medal Finals. I've not slept much for the past three days, so please forgive my upcoming ineloquence.

    To paraphrase those recent threads, it's a given that about 20% of the kids who come to the finals have a shot at winning it; 20% have a shot at not falling off; and the remaining 60% are somewhere in the middle. The 60% get around with errors, the bottom 20% get around if they're lucky, the top 20% fight it out and may the best rider win. The recent threads have discussed if those bottom 60-80% shouldn't be weeded out beforehand, either by a regional qualifying final (like in the Maclay) or a preliminary round the day before (as is the case if over 250 riders qualify for the Medal, I believe.)

    The question is how the bottom 20% and the middle 60% got there. Did they do their best in a less competitive zone? Remember, this is the group who for one reason or another aren't going to go in and place. They're the riders who aren't prepared for that level for whatever reason. Lack of high-level preparation is certainly an explanation- but another method is to qualify by going to shows with lower entries, asking someone to fill the class, and then asking the other person to lose.

    I'm not saying everyone does that last bit- but honestly, that was my first thought reading the first post, because we know it happens.

    Here's pre-emptive popcorn.
    "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep."
    - Harry Dresden

    Horse Isle 2: Legend of the Esrohs LifeCycle Breeding and competition MMORPG



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by abrant View Post
    I fail to see how WINNING is a life skill.

    ...

    As a horsey aside, I once was helping a girl with her arabian gelding and went with her to the county 4h show. She ended up showing against the leading AQHA junior english equitation rider at the time. In the hockey example, should one cheer on the champion rider against the 4h kids as a life lesson? Is it wrong to suggest that the accomplished show rider stick to recognized shows to allow the other kids to suceed? Why not have the her assist with schooling days to help the other kids rather than just showing up and collecting all the ribbons? Would this be raising whiny, weak children?
    I think that winninggracefully is in fact a life skill.
    Shouting "BOOYAH, LOSERS!" after winning a class... not classy.
    Thanking the judge and complimenting your fellow competitors... Classy.

    I think that since it's not a team sport, sportsmanship is often forgotten in horses. How ofter have we overheard sigls sniping at eachother behind their backs, or belittiling a competitors horse?
    Conversly, how often have we hears "Oh, XYZ bought that ribbon. I heard she spent eleventy billion dollars on that horse... " or "It's not fair to score that horse better than mine because it's a better mover! I'm a better rider because I'm riding a harder horse!"

    It's better to lose in better competition than to win in no competition.



  19. #59
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    I can't recall that I was ever broken to pieces to be beaten by the kids on significantly more expensive horses with more talent than my horse and I possessed. Shoot, if you've ever been ON the better horse, a significantly better horse, and gotten beaten by politics, you know all you can do is laugh! There will ALWAYS be people out there with more ________. Get used to it. Politics, bad judging, good judging...it is life. One of my proudest moments as a riding coach was a kid at her first horse show. Her parents bought her a made horse, and he was a real trooper. She did a showmanship class, and as they called the placings down to 1st, I noticed her fiddling with her leadshank. She laid the flat-folded leather in the crook of her elbow so she could clap for the other kids...then had to rearrange to walk her horse up to get her ribbon. She did that of her own volition, all on her 9 year old own. Good for her.



  20. #60
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    I think my cousin was complaining to her dad one time how she could be as successful as that other girl with the fancy horse (Cousin got the OTTBs we had).
    Uncle told her point blank:
    What do you rather have: what you got and a dad who pays his way or a fancy horse and a dad who does not pay what he owes people.

    The situation was resoled right there.

    (though my uncle was crying poor... he could have bought the girl a nice WB...but as the family goes, with a barn full of usable horses, you just don't buy another one)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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