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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2001
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    VA
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    Well, I just got back. Thrilled with the Duc-meister's performance (9th in the open and 6th in the Cosequin Colt Championship.) In fact, I've got goosebumps I'm so thrilled!

    ANYWAY.

    Yet again there was a TON of discussion, with so many many people, about starting young horses. And the huge problem that it is here in the US ... and how it's becoming bigger. I spent a LOT of time with a German handler, who was a fine representative of his country and the German Equestrian community. What a gentleman! And what a fine horseman! From what I could gather, their system starts with what he called "clubs". I'm guessing think pony clubs for adults. Or maybe (and GD you might be able to chime in here) the PHA-local-kinda-thing. Oh, and the other extraordinarily interesting comment he made was that 50% of making a top horse is training. Yeah, I know everyone will probably say, "Duh" but it's not something I was aware of ... such a large percent. I always assumed that the majority had to be the talent of the horse.

    I am really loathe to bring this subject up yet again ... but it really was quite the topic with a lot of people. And of course, it doesn't really affect those with cash to burn, it affects the small breeder. The large barns—and we all know who they are—don't have this problem. They, I believe, are really making some headway: slow but steady. But they have the $$$s to do so. Or maybe I should say $$$$$s to do so.

    Having said that, the average breeder, on a world wide basis, has only TWO mares (thank you Cheryl Frank for that statistic.) We've discussed this problem and solutions (???) around and around and around. And I'm not sure we—as a BB group—can come up with anything to actually *DO*. But boy, am I sure thinking A LOT about this subject.

    Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? BTW, we sure as heck are breeding some NICE NICE NICE horses.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2001
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    11,903

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    Well, I just got back. Thrilled with the Duc-meister's performance (9th in the open and 6th in the Cosequin Colt Championship.) In fact, I've got goosebumps I'm so thrilled!

    ANYWAY.

    Yet again there was a TON of discussion, with so many many people, about starting young horses. And the huge problem that it is here in the US ... and how it's becoming bigger. I spent a LOT of time with a German handler, who was a fine representative of his country and the German Equestrian community. What a gentleman! And what a fine horseman! From what I could gather, their system starts with what he called "clubs". I'm guessing think pony clubs for adults. Or maybe (and GD you might be able to chime in here) the PHA-local-kinda-thing. Oh, and the other extraordinarily interesting comment he made was that 50% of making a top horse is training. Yeah, I know everyone will probably say, "Duh" but it's not something I was aware of ... such a large percent. I always assumed that the majority had to be the talent of the horse.

    I am really loathe to bring this subject up yet again ... but it really was quite the topic with a lot of people. And of course, it doesn't really affect those with cash to burn, it affects the small breeder. The large barns—and we all know who they are—don't have this problem. They, I believe, are really making some headway: slow but steady. But they have the $$$s to do so. Or maybe I should say $$$$$s to do so.

    Having said that, the average breeder, on a world wide basis, has only TWO mares (thank you Cheryl Frank for that statistic.) We've discussed this problem and solutions (???) around and around and around. And I'm not sure we—as a BB group—can come up with anything to actually *DO*. But boy, am I sure thinking A LOT about this subject.

    Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? BTW, we sure as heck are breeding some NICE NICE NICE horses.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2003
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    Sitting at my computer!
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    You didn't call!!!!

    Don't worry I found out Duc's results on MY OWN!

    Congrats!!!!!! That is FANTASTIC!

    As for your issue....I have nothing of value to add only that I also think this is a HUGE issue that deserves lots of discussion....
    PROUD MEMBER OF THE \"OMGiH I LOFF MY MARE\" CLIQUE



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 1999
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    Cypress, near Houston, Texas
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    8,486

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    The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. I'll get more info about it and let you know. It sounds like the 100 day stallion testing program only for OTHER than stallions.
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,291

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    This may be completely off topic but I know that Hilltop is now reccomending that people start their young horses with eventers. Said that they give the best, most well-rounded education and teach them to go forward from day one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    And for a plug, they are highly reccomending Clark Montgomery in VA to send young horses to.
    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    Grab mane and kick on!

    www.rocksolid-training.com



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2004
    Location
    Houston, Tx
    Posts
    1,028

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    Just 2 comments - first the obvious - training is 100% of how the horse ends up/performs - it's quite simple, w/o training, the horse is in a field eating grass his/her whole life - no one will know how good the horse is. What this translates to is if you can't afford to have a super horse trained and rider by someone who is going to teach the horse to be a super star, the horse will never be acknowledged as one. Second, my personal solution to get young stock trained is hook up with a trainer working on one of the coasts with lots of clients, offer them horses at a substantial discount, or partner up with them on the horses. They take the horse and start it, ride it, show it, and when it sells, we both get a piece of the pie. I don't get the 50K price that the horse sells for, but I get the horse sold into a market that helps my reputation as a breeder, and I get the horses sold w/o a huge training investment. I am a small breeder, I only have one foal coming next year. Jill



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2003
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    1,900

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sonesta:
    The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. I'll get more info about it and let you know. It sounds like the 100 day stallion testing program only for OTHER than stallions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Has the ISR considered getting trainers from Germany to train riders? I know its not really their responsibilty nor their goal to produce good trainers; producing good horses is their goal. However, having bereiters come over from Germany seems like a band-aid solution. What we really need in North America is a program to train riders to become good horse trainers. Once we have good trainers we will have people to train our youngsters.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug. 18, 2003
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    Brenham, TX
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, Sonesta, but I THINK Ekkehard DID mention that part of the ISR program was to have a US person assist in the process so that they could learn and eventually take over.
    Triple J Ranch Sporthorses
    www.triplejsporthorse.com
    Member - OMGiH I LOFF my mare(s) clique



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2001
    Location
    VA
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    11,903

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by f4leggin:
    Second, my personal solution to get young stock trained is hook up with a trainer working on one of the coasts with lots of clients, offer them horses at a substantial discount, or partner up with them on the horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What are you? A mind reader? This is the best solution, in my opinion. But boy, it is soooo full of pitfalls... so many opportunities for one side to take advantage of the other.

    As far as the Hilltop issue goes, heck we don't need to train more RIDERS. For what? So they can go off and do their own career?

    We've GOT the riders. We've got to find a way to get the young horses to them ... to interest them. AND, most importantly, to do so without investing a ton of cash, that the breeders **don't have!**

    I wasn't kidding when I said, "Frustration Inc." in the title. This is soooo frustrating.

    Can you imagine a breeder looking a raw talent in the back yard, with no way to get it trained?
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Posts
    1,214

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    Is the problem perhaps that the potential purchasers of your young horses have unrealistic expectations or don't want to put their own time/money into training? Maybe I am not understanding what the problem is, but I think there are good trainers for babies out there, you just have to find them. I think people with young horses also tend to forget that they can and should consider alternative ways to get their young horse going instead of assuming "I have to send him away to a pro."

    I have a 3yo hanoverian, and don't know many trainers in my area. I asked around, got a name of an up and coming young trainer, and asked her if she would be willing to come to my barn and help me start my baby. She agreed and essentially gave me and the horse a weekly or twice-weekly "lesson" that initially included backing him, then progressively more riding. I had already taught him to lunge and wear tack.

    I got him going quite well for probably less than $500. Yes it's a little unusual, but if you have the time, are experienced, and are willing to make a few phone calls, I think you can find a good trainer affordably. And this particular trainer had spent a good deal of time in Germany which is where she learned to start babies. Her methods were excellent and my horse was never so much as kicked or pulled on and now can w-t-c and hack out.

    I think the answer is a willingness to depart from the idea that gets hammered into a young horse owner's head that "this is the only way it gets done." As in by sending the horse away to come back to you perfectly trained, or expecting the breeder to have also trained it. Also it helps to develop your network so you can get a referral to a good trainer. I think you folks may be more concerned with the next levels of training so that the horse is ready to show at the big shows. But again I think that I as owner have to take responsibility for getting my own horse to that point, with the assistance of a good trainer who will come give me lessons. Shipping them off to have someone else do it isn't my solution.

    But then again I'm probably not the average buyer you all are having to market to, who probably wants the horse already well trained. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 9, 2002
    Location
    Southern Pines, NC
    Posts
    810

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    Well I'm in the northwest area of Indiana, I have a secret, a little small town trainer that I hold near and dear to my heart to start my youngsters for under $500 a month INCLUDING board. Her barn is really old and probably most people would run the other way, but the horses receive excellent care and she's a kind gentle trainer that gets them started properly undersaddle. I think she's a treasure, but she's not a dressage rider or jumper rider, but she gets them going quietly and consistantly enough for buyers to get on and try them out.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    7,412

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    We have a young horse program in our area, but the problem is that sending the young horses into training in the US is so much more expensive than it is in Germany. If small breeders have to add $12,000 in training to what we already have in our youngsters, small breeders will never be able to consistently get young horses started correctly.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
    Visit us on facebook!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2004
    Location
    Charleston, SC
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    Maybe people could post the names of trainers whose work they feel most closely adheres to what we are trying to attain. In doing this, it could be possible for trainers to gain clients and for clients to properly train their horses (preferably without going bankrupt).

    So who do you feel offers the best program for young horses from a small breeder? Would there be a way to offer incentives to trainers taking multiple horses? For example, if trainer x is generally slow through certain months, do you feel it would be possible for people from this BB to join together and send horses to that person? This would ensure that the trainer had clients at a time they typically might not. It also might significantly reduce the cost if the trainer could count on a certain income for the time the horses are there. Sort of like vacationing during the off season with a group discount? What do you all think of that?

    I agree--the problem is the substantial cost. This makes small breeding opperations very difficult to run.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May. 6, 1999
    Location
    Ocala, FL
    Posts
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    I think it is happening. I'm seeing more and more places advertising their services for breaking and training. Quite a few in No. Va. and I've seen the ad for the Louisianna facility, too. One thing I'm noticing about the promotions is that they are hitting the right buttons in their copy. It seems to me that "someone is listening." The word has gotten out that there's this demand and now suppliers are rushing in to fill the void.

    Of course, the question remains as to whether these new facilities and newly positioned professionals will offer services that are both reasonable and effective. What I'll be looking for is 1.) modernism--specifically, I'd want to see a website, clear contact information, history and credentials, AND RATES right out there for all to see and access easily; 2.) concern for safety; 3.) conventional practices that are market driven (no roundpenning, horse whispering, wholistic approaches or other faddish stuff that can't be sold to competition-oriented clientele)...and what else?

    Anyway, I do think many rider/trainers are indeed starting to reposition themselves. I hope those who use the new services being promoted will keep others posted on who does a good job.
    Sportponies Unlimited
    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 18, 2000
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    ~~~Virginia Horse Country~~~
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    6,855

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    Sonesta posted:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I had heard that it would be at Judi Gerhardt's place. If I remember correctly it's called Blue Moon Farm in Louisiana, somewhere.
    http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2003
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    Joliette, QC, Canada
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    4,286

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    I train and show my own; nobody never help me in anything. The only thing for me is I have work for big rider in eastern Canada so some of them remember.

    For next year, I have found a trainer that has a couple of junior rider with no horse. What I want to offer is this: I let you the horse for a season, I show senior, the young show junior and I am on the ground making my promotion.

    Now I have to make sure my mare will get good points !
    Élène

    Fighting ovarian cancer ! 2013 huge turnaround as I am winning the battle !..
    http://esergerie.wordpress.com



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2002
    Location
    Monclova
    Posts
    1,650

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    I found a wonderful trainer in Indiana who is teaching me to train young horses on the longlines. She trains all of her horses everything on the ground in longlines before she tries it on their back. She said she can teach a horse all the way through Grand Prix on long lines! I think this might be a good option for breeders who don't ride, and even those who do. I'm going to try and schedule a clinic with her on how to start a young horse on longlines. It will be in NW Ohio, or SE Michigan. Let me know you or anyone you know would be interested in attending. I've been riding for over 20 years and I am so sold on this theory of teaching. The horses work so happily and willingly and are so relaxed. This training helps them to develop without having to compensate for the rider's weight. I started a young mare this way this summer and she was so very easy when I finally got on her back. She already knew how to stop and turn. Our only problem was moving forward and I had to reinforce my leg aids with the dressage whip. Of course she already knew what the dressage whip was for from our ground work. Her "breaking" was such a pleasant experience not only for me, but for her as well. I've had no resistence from her whatsoever and she already knew what contact was b/c of the longlines which cannot be with side reins. We'll be starting my 2 year old with the long lines soon. Perhaps we'll use her for the clinic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2001
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    Smithtown,N.Y.
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    Why does everyone here seem to feel Americans need to learn how to break and start young horses here? Many can, many do. It just takes money it's that simple. You can get someone to break your horse if you do not have the staff to do it. Then, you take it to a trainer to start. No matter what anyone thinks, most BNTs got that title through years of experience and in time, do not want to do the breaking.

    Partnerships are not the cure all by far. If your baby is not sold by befor its first show, here comes show expenses. Ching cha ching. If said baby is still not sold years down the line, are all prepared for this? Partnerships are still a disaster waiting to happen if the current owner does not have enough funds to bring it along. Your trainer may train and show it for a piece of the pie at the end, but sure won't pay entries. It's that simple. They have already given you a huge chunk of money by providing services.

    Breeders need to understand that this may be a future expense and people buying need to also understand this. It's just that simple. If your lucky, and step in a deal that keeps costs down, excellent, but those are few and far between.

    I just don't seem to think this can be done without the money to back this investment first. I don't mean to sound blunt or anything but how can anything be done without some sort of money to start out with. The more you can do as a breeder and owner befor you need to consult a trainer,GREAT! But, if you cann't break or start how else can this get done?
    \"Disaster is the only thing that I can depend on\"-
    Stevie Nicks



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2001
    Location
    Interlochen, Michigan USA
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    1,226

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
    3.) conventional practices that are market driven (no roundpenning, horse whispering, wholistic approaches or other faddish stuff that can't be sold to competition-oriented clientele)... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Wow. Interesting post and I agree with many of your points, but do you REALLY think competition-oriented clientele are opposed to natural horsemanship methods? All of our horses are worked with NH principles and the ones who stay long enough do ground work in the roundpen. It is just a way of communicating with the horse. Even the farrier employs NH methods and both he and the horses benefit-- the horses are relaxed, and he sweats less and suffers less stress under his client's horses than any other farrier I have ever seen. I have never had ANYONE, clients both potential and realized, indicate that they thought our methods were invalid. So this statement really came as a surprise.
    Trakehner Treffpunkt & Tannenwald Trakehner
    Breeders & Friends of American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!
    AND ... Breeding-Stallions.com



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar. 21, 2004
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    US
    Posts
    2,251

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
    [QUOTE]

    As far as the Hilltop issue goes, heck we don't need to train more RIDERS. For what? So they can go off and do their own career?

    We've GOT the riders. We've got to find a way to get the young horses to them ... to interest them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Omom, there is a huge difference between a TRAINER and a RIDER.



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