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  1. #1
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    Default One World Currency - Starting in the Horse Industry?

    What the heck? This sounds like the US is pushing to make all wages the same by averaging out among all countries that have people applying for jobs here. If that's the case, what's next? First step to a single world currency?

    I know it's not just the horse industry, but it looks like we're part of the assimilation process. Start at the bottom and work your way up.

    I'm only for it if we also get the same vacations and amount of holidays (and work the same hours) that Europeans do!

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...rse-businesses
    Last edited by Velvet; Nov. 5, 2011 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Adding the link that CosMonster asked for. Doh!!
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  2. #2
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    Default

    I think posts like this work best when you provide a link to whatever you're referring to...



  3. #3
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    Default

    Doh! I just added it to the OP.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  4. #4
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    Want to see where we'll soon be unless we change course? Look at the PIIGS -- Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain.

    November, 2012 is one year away, and can't get here soon enough.
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams



  5. #5
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    Actually, if you read the article and know a little about the H visas, this ends up being better for American workers since it removes part of the incentive to hire foreign labor (ie, you can pay them slave wages) and allows/requires employers to hire an American should one apply for the job, even after foreign labor has been hired, which is a sea change from the way it used to be.

    Not sure where anyone would get "one world currency" from this.
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    A

    Not sure where anyone would get "one world currency" from this.
    the OP may be using deductive reasoning as the new law states in essence:

    “If you’re taking part in the H-2B program, and you’re paying your H-2B workers $15 an hour because that’s the new wage, then you have to pay all of your American workers in the same classification the same wage,”



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    Actually, if you read the article and know a little about the H visas, this ends up being better for American workers since it removes part of the incentive to hire foreign labor (ie, you can pay them slave wages) and allows/requires employers to hire an American should one apply for the job, even after foreign labor has been hired, which is a sea change from the way it used to be.

    Not sure where anyone would get "one world currency" from this.
    Bingo.
    And, if you offer a wage that someone can potentially live on, you might actually attract 'Murrican workers.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by clanter View Post
    the OP may be using deductive reasoning as the new law states in essence:

    “If you’re taking part in the H-2B program, and you’re paying your H-2B workers $15 an hour because that’s the new wage, then you have to pay all of your American workers in the same classification the same wage,”
    If that's the case, the OP's reasoning is faulty. Yes, you would have to pay both your foreign and domestic workers in U.S. dollars because, get this, they are working in the U.S. Now you ALSO have to pay your foreign workers the same wage as equally experienced American workers (and this is what that particular para is explaining), which is a BENEFIT for U.S. workers since it eliminates the ability of an employer to bring in foreign labor for far lower wages than Americans like to work for.

    This is a U.S. visa program that does not apply to any other country, so again, where does the one world currency come in?

    ETA: And if you take a cruise around the interwebz, the folks who use the H-2B are screaming bloody murder about this change because they think they will have to pay too much for importing their temp and seasonal labor.
    Last edited by loshad; Nov. 6, 2011 at 10:38 AM. Reason: clarification
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.



  9. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    What the heck? This sounds like the US is pushing to make all wages the same by averaging out among all countries that have people applying for jobs here.
    I think the tinfoil hat you wear to stop the UN from controlling your thoughts with microwaves is on a little tight today.

    The article is talking about averaging the wages of all people doing a job in the US. So if an average US groom makes $16 an hour you can only import workers at $16 an hour. You can't say a US groom with zero experience makes $8 an hour and import people at $8 an hour.

    There is nothing in there about averaging across countries, but neither interpretation leads me to assume we'd switch from the Dollar to the Euro any time soon.



  10. #10
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    Hey, I like that they are putting American's first. My leap may seem alarmist, premature and maybe like I'm a conspiracy theory. It was just a short step in my mind, and not a major leap, to seeing this used it other ways. One country has a standard, then the other countries want to have their's match up--and eventually it becomes either one currancy, or all are valued the same way.

    Okay, so maybe it was a bit more than a simple, small step. I thought it was interesting...
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Bingo.
    And, if you offer a wage that someone can potentially live on, you might actually attract 'Murrican workers.
    Yup. I get stuck at "Employers would like to hire Americans first but can't find folks who will fill the positions." The unsaid truth is that the positions are deeply underpaid. So, yeah, pay all at the bottom-- US Citizens, illegal aliens, whomever-- a living wage that will allow them to buy education and housing and health insurance and A LOT of problems will go away. Of course, the middle class would rather have cheap labor AND an easily identified class of people to scapegoat.
    The armchair saddler
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    So, yeah, pay all at the bottom-- US Citizens, illegal aliens, whomever-- a living wage that will allow them to buy education and housing and health insurance and A LOT of problems will go away.
    Sure. Everyone is entitled to a living wage no matter how menial their job is.

    Shovel [manure] for a living and make $50,000 a year.

    I should have skipped college.

    Gotta love the o-bots
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Nov. 7, 2011 at 02:31 PM. Reason: language



  13. #13
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    Velvet, I just want to say that I always thoroughly enjoy your threads.



  14. #14
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    I just have to shake my head in wonder whenever the issue of "cheap labor" comes up. For those of you who decry the existence of "cheap labor"- have you ever stopped to look at your own lifestyle and recognized how you benefit from it? "Cheap Labor" goes into the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the products you use. If there were no such thing, you probably couldn't afford to buy those things.

    There has always been cheap labor- unskilled, menial jobs that don't pay a salary that will afford an individual a nice car, a college education, fancy clothes, a flat screen TV. There have always been those individuals that fill those jobs- teenagers, uneducated adults, adults with simple needs and wants, part-timers, and yes, immigrants. Should companies "exploit" their employees? Keep them as slaves? Keep them in unsafe, unsanitary, inhumane conditions? NO!!! But hire "cheap labor" to fill simple positions to provide unskilled services (flipping burgers, washing dishes, picking fruit, cleaning stalls) and pay them minimum wage, on time, in good conditions- well, why not? And what happens when that burger flipper/fruit picker/dish washer/stall cleaner suddenly gets to make a fat, juicy salary with benefits? What happens to our economy? What happens to our standard of living? You know what, we'll return to an agrarian society. We'll grow our own food and pick it, we'll sew our own clothes, we'll mow our own lawns. Because the price of things in our economy is dictated by the costs- labor being a huge element of that cost.

    Cheap labor is not the enemy.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jsalem View Post
    But hire "cheap labor" to fill simple positions to provide unskilled services (flipping burgers, washing dishes, picking fruit, cleaning stalls) and pay them minimum wage, on time, in good conditions- well, why not?
    THIS is the price point being discussed. Minimum wage versus the current much-less-than-minimum-skeevily-under-the-table wage.

    Not a wage that affords people insurance, education, and a big-screen TV. Not a wage on par with a college graduate. A low wage that is commensurate with other legal, relatively unskilled labor.

    Actually, I would compare a lot of low-end horse jobs with other low-end jobs in recreational industries, like the person who rents you a canoe or a set of skis. Because, by and large, horses are recreation. Riding? Recreation. Racing/betting? Recreation. And recreation jobs typically pay poorly (minimum wage or a small salary plus room and board) and are deeply affected by how 'rich' people are feeling at any given time.

    The big difference I see between the horse industry and other recreational industries is that horses, as living creatures, require a higher level of responsibility since they have to be cared for every. single. day. The work itself, particularly entry-level, also tends to be fairly physically demanding. It'll be interesting, to me, so see what ends up happening to worker retention if the population of low-level horse workers are freer to move out of the industry. Because the traits that make a stable person or groom valuable--punctuality, hard work, responsibility, reliability, etc--translate very well to success in higher-paying jobs outside the industry.
    ---------------------------



  16. #16
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    Most stable owners that I know pay their workers starting at $10 per hour. Many provide housing and utilities. Many offer opportunities to earn more at shows or doing extras like body clipping. Yet you hear on this board ALL THE TIME that "if BOs would offer a 'living wage', they would attract Americans." Most BOs offer above minimum wage. Americans require more. Even if they're not educated. Heck, why work at all when you can get money from the government?

    I'm telling you, the problem is our culture. America is supposed to be the "Land of Opportunity", not the land of " The Guaranteed Good Life". We are supposed to have an equal access to education and government services. In the old days, many were limited by their class or caste. The only thing that should limit you here is your work ethic. That is sorely lacking in many.

    Just like many industries, the horse industry relies on cheap labor to keep things going. Some of the "consumers" in this industry are very wealthy. Some are not. Try to mess with the free market system, try to "redistribute the wealth" by eliminating "cheap labor" and you know, the very wealthy are the ONLY ones who will be able to afford riding. The cost of keeping horses will skyrocket- even riding once per week on a school horse will become prohibitively expensive.

    The H2B programs provide a needed labor force. Pay Americans what they feel they deserve?, uh.



  17. #17
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    [edit]
    From the article:

    And when we require no experience, we set it at the level 1, which is usually between $8.50 and $9 an hour,” he continued. “But when they average the four together, it raises the wage considerably. I think some of the wages we were getting back were $16, $17 an hour.”
    So you progressive[s] think that $9/hr for a no-skill job is slave labor?

    The Federal minimum wage rate is $7.25.

    [edit] I know you all are in love with teleprompter-man, but seriously, he needs to go along with his idiot DOL secretary.
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Nov. 7, 2011 at 02:33 PM.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mildot View Post
    From the article:



    So you progressive[s] think that $9/hr for a no-skill job is slave labor?

    The Federal minimum wage rate is $7.25.

    You [edit] I know you all are in love with teleprompter-man, but seriously, he needs to go along with his idiot DOL secretary.
    Thank you for your well thought contribution to a meaningful dialog.

    The people complaining about "redistribution of wealth" also pretty much admit that their lifestyle is dependent on others living on the margins. Why is it a good thing that I'm okay as long as there's an underclass to support me? Also, how low of a wage is low enough? How low would you like it to be?
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Nov. 7, 2011 at 02:33 PM.



  19. #19
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    The "underclass" as you say are comprised of unskilled individuals. Their labor is worth less. Do you really think that our country will ever produce a citizenship that is 100% well educated and skilled? A bunch of professional robots? IMO, that's what's wrong with our educational system today. Everyone wrings their hands and frets about falling behind in math and science. We need longer school years, longer days, more programs. And we do away with art, shop, PE and the like. It's really not okay in our culture to say, "College isn't for me"- I want to paint.

    It's unrealistic to imagine that everyone is going to go to college and become CEO of a company. Or a doctor. Or a lawyer. Some individuals don't aspire to such things or heaven forbid, they arent smart enough or ambitious enough. And that's okay. We need mechanics and artists and garbage collectors and stall muckers. But their labor is not worth the same as that doctor or CEO.

    As long as they are fairly paid (and that is determined by what the market will bear) and as long as they are working in safe conditions, the choice is theirs. That is what this country is about. Equal Opportunity.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeyYouNags View Post
    The people complaining about "redistribution of wealth" also pretty much admit that their lifestyle is dependent on others living on the margins.
    The lifestyle of people who do not complain about redistribution of wealth also depends on others living on the margins, whether you would like to admit it or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by HeyYouNags View Post
    Why is it a good thing that I'm okay as long as there's an underclass to support me?
    I don't depend on an "underclass" to support me. I am more than capable of doing all the menial tasks that I hire out. I choose to support the "underclass" (your description not mine) by paying for the services they provide at a rate that I consider acceptable. Increase the rate enough and I choose to not pay it. When enough decide not to pay the higher rate the "underclass" will be paid $0. Now they are worse off due to the "enlightened" policies of ignorant fools who think they can bend the market through legislation without the market responding negatively.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeyYouNags View Post
    Also, how low of a wage is low enough? How low would you like it to be?
    How low of a wage is too low does not depend on any concept of social "justice". It depends entirely on what the purchaser of the the goods and services created with that labor feels like paying. And since equine sports are basically a luxury that many can easily do without, that amount paid for the services that equine laborers provide can easily go to zero.

    And in case you did not know, $9-$10 per hour is the going rate for unskilled manufacturing labor (assemblers, stockers, etc) in the labor market where I am. Those are rates the market will actually support while allowing those who take the risk with their capital the ROI that they want (not the ROI progressives think the entrepreneur should get). That, of course, does not include loser companies that are stuck with inefficient union labor. Those jobs end up paying $0/hr when capitalists just get fed up with organized labor and send the jobs elsewhere.

    Welcome to reality.



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