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  1. #1
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    Oct. 25, 2005
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    Cool Interesting.......watching the clones compete

    I am referring to the PBR finals this week. The clones are 4 of the 6 from the world champion bull, Panhandle Slim. Of the 6, one died (not sure why), one "would not buck" (don't have the info other than that statement) and the other 4 are very good bulls, chosen as part of the herd of only 120 to compete at this year's finals, but according to Ty Murray, 9 time world champion and one of the founders of the PBR, they are competing at "just a notch under the donor bull's abilities". Also, the original Slim was one of the meanest bulls ever to buck, he would get you EVERY time. But the clones, while more tempermental than some, are not as mean as the donor. So at least in this experiment, when compared to each other and then back on to the success of the original.......they are good.... but not as good as the "ole man himself". Makes you wonder if the horses would follow suit IF they were allowed to compete.



  2. #2
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    This is facinating to me. I've been wondering for some time now if there are cloned horses out there now old enough to be competing at the same levels as their genetic donors. We'd read where there are some cloned foals out there, like from a top tier jumper, with different color markings and cosmetic distinctions, but are there any older clones doing the same disciplines with the same trainer as the original horse?

    And why can't they compete? I can see refusing registry to clones in breed shows, but in open or local backyard events, what's the problem? Plenty of grade or unpapered pure bred horses compete in pleasure or jumping and the like. Maybe it's too early to tally results conclusively now?



  3. #3
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    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  4. #4
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    What's most interesting about the bulls is that there's not really much change in training or environment or conditioning. By contrast, the training of a jumper or dressage horse or even a race horse is complicated enough that it could never be the same.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  5. #5
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    Default I'm not sure where I read it

    but somewhere I read, maybe it was on that site hackin, but now the price for the bovine species is down to $17000. Now that is doable, not the $150,000 they want for the horses.



  6. #6
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    How hugely interesting. I hope more people can shed some light on the cloned horses question, I too would like to know...although call me 'old fashioned' but it takes all the fun out of bettering by breeding doesn't it.



  7. #7
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    I don't think cloning horses is ever going to be that prevalent except for special cases where a special animal became or becomes unavailable for breeding, as in Gem Twist's case, or perhaps some special mares. I don't think it will ever be affordable compared to breeding, and I think you'll end up with better animals from breeding than you will with clones, even clones of the best horses. For sport horses, there's always going to be something more that you'll want - a little more trainable, a little more try, a little more soundness. If I were a breeder and had the choice of cloning a great horse or breeding and raising 5-10 offspring for the same money, I think I'd be more successful overall with the multiple offspring.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  8. #8
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    Cloned animals are never the same as the donor animals. In utero conditions are different, cell division patterns are different, surrogate mare uterus is different, mare treats each foal differently, life experience even for a bull is different. Genetically identical mice at University are individuals with different personalities. Same with bulls and horses, I suspect.



  9. #9
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    I honestly think the difference is something you can't clone...the soul/personality...and it can make a huge difference as shown by the attitudes of the bulls. The donor bull was mean and aggressive but his clones are no where near so much. I think that which makes all of us living creatures unique...people we call it our soul...animals perhaps have one too...a life essence...whatever...but you can't clone that.

    I personally don't care much for cloning like this. How boring to see a race with nothing but Secretariat clones in it. I get it fully when a clone is created to presere genetics but to create clones to compete against each other just seems vulgar somehow.



  10. #10
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    Oct. 25, 2005
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    Smile Daydream.....

    That was what was interesting to me. To see clones actually compete against themselves and their donor. I doubt THAT actual scenario will ever happen in the sport horse world (however it may happen in the QH world as I think a bunch of cutter clones have been produced from one donor). Of the 6 clones of Panhandle Slim, 4 did what was expected. It would be interesting to talk to the folks that saw the one that "did not buck"......talking about an outlier!!!
    Initially, I think the clones were produced for breeding purposes....but I think all along they wanted to buck them, otherwise why produce 6 at the same time, why not space them out over say 5 years apart, to keep that breeding out there for a longer time period? The Slims were not the only clones competing at the finals, there were others, so that tells me the "performance" part can be replicated fairly consistently BUT like Daydream said, there is something about the "soul" of the animal that is being lost. I find it VERY interesting.



  11. #11
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    How was the original treated/handled as a youngster vs his clones?
    ______________________________
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  12. #12
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    Red face The bulls, JB?

    I don't know about the early years of Panhandle Slim, but if memory serves...???...
    the same man that hauled him (donor) is the same man with the clones. But that is going back a few years....so don't hold me to that. But, I am pretty sure all the clones grew up together, which sheds some light on them and their ultimate differences.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILuvmyButtercups View Post
    And why can't they compete? I can see refusing registry to clones in breed shows, but in open or local backyard events, what's the problem? Plenty of grade or unpapered pure bred horses compete in pleasure or jumping and the like. Maybe it's too early to tally results conclusively now?
    The USEF willl not register horses that are clones or offspring of clones, so I don't see how it would ever be lucrative to clone a mare or stallion for breeding purposes. IE Gem Twist, if Gemini isn't recognized/registered, how would he ever compete in the jumpers? Then what use is it to breed him, if his offspring aren't going to be recognized either?
    Fade to Grey Farm
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  14. #14
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    Why would he have to be registered to compete in the jumpers??
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAEventer View Post
    The USEF willl not register horses that are clones or offspring of clones, so I don't see how it would ever be lucrative to clone a mare or stallion for breeding purposes. IE Gem Twist, if Gemini isn't recognized/registered, how would he ever compete in the jumpers? Then what use is it to breed him, if his offspring aren't going to be recognized either?
    USEF does not restrict registration of clones.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  16. #16
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    No, if IIRC from the thread a couple of months ago, clones cannot compete in FEI events?
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAEventer View Post
    The USEF willl not register horses that are clones or offspring of clones, so I don't see how it would ever be lucrative to clone a mare or stallion for breeding purposes. IE Gem Twist, if Gemini isn't recognized/registered, how would he ever compete in the jumpers? Then what use is it to breed him, if his offspring aren't going to be recognized either?
    You'd be wrong. There is no USEF restriction.
    If the Chapots decide to compete Gemini there will be no problem recording him.

    Think about it. They don't verifiy any info unless you provide papers and it's OK to record or get a HID with no pedigree info.

    As far as his offspring there is no requirement that the sire or dam be recorded with anyone or that pedigree info be provided when recording.

    I am curious what made you think there was a restriction.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    No, if IIRC from the thread a couple of months ago, clones cannot compete in FEI events?
    FEI came up with a rule like that... but I suspect that when and if we have a spectacular horse at the national level affected, that there will be a discussion about the real goals for such a rule.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    FEI came up with a rule like that... but I suspect that when and if we have a spectacular horse at the national level affected, that there will be a discussion about the real goals for such a rule.

    For sure. If there is a star and it was prevented from competing there would be a BIG discussion.

    Tom Reed stated in one of his articles that based on information he received from the FEI in 2009 that clones can't receive FEI passports.

    But if you look at the information on the FEI website regarding FEI passports I don't see anything prohibiting clones.
    The EU has it's own regulations now and I haven't checked that set of rules for restrictions.

    FEI passports are issued by the home country (or EU) so USEF would be the issuer of FEI documentation. I don't see anything on the USEF FEI passport application regarding clones.

    There may very well be something that prohibits FEI passports but if that's the case it would be helpful if a link was posted.
    Nothing in the USEF rules prevents recording a clone.
    And GAeventer you might want to check the USEF recordings before you say the horse can't be recorded because,in fact, GEMINI is recorded with USEF. LMAO


    GEMINI (5099615)
    Foal Date: 8/28/2008 Verified
    Breed: THOROUGHBRED
    Color: Grey Sex: S
    Sire: GOOD TWIST
    Dam: COLDLY NOBLE
    Membership Type: Life
    Breed Registry Information:
    GEMINI (08.019629) - AES

    FRANK CHAPOT
    NESHANIC STATION, NJ
    Owner ID:2110
    Active Member - LIFE

    FRANK CHAPOT
    WELLINGTON, FL
    Owner ID:2110
    Active Member - LIFE

    LAURA CHAPOT
    NESHANIC STATION, NJ
    Owner ID:57324
    Active Member - LIFE

    LAURA CHAPOT
    WELLINGTON, FL
    Owner ID:57324
    Active Member - LIFE

    Breeder: CHAPOT, FRANK

    N/A

    USHJA Registered

    N/A



  20. #20
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    Aug. 30, 2003
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    Neither clones nor their progeny nor their descendants may compete under FEI rules in international sport. See:

    http://morningside-stud.com/PinkHorses.html

    This rule was voted in at the General Assembly of the FEI in 2007, so a majority supported the ban.

    Many national federations align their rules with the FEI; some do not. So in some countries clones and their progeny and descendants may compete in national sport but these horses can never advance to international sport.

    I do not believe any number of successful clones or their progeny or descendants will lead the FEI to change this rule because deep-seated values are at work here, especially in many/most/all of the core breeding and sport countries that carry the most weight in the FEI.

    In previous discussions a number of people advocated simply concealing the pedigree of the clone/progeny/descendant as a way to evade the FEI rule. I am amazed that nobody has called into question the ethics of this action. To me this would be highly unethical and would warrant a ban from sport for a lengthy period -- if anyone asked my opinion, it would be a lifetime ban as it would be premeditated and likely would require a conspiracy to implement.

    I have no idea if the FEI has taken a view on this but I suspect it has not...yet.



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