[risingstarfarm]

I'm interested in learning about this particular mareline.

[ne1]

in the stam rankings several years ago i saw the only instance i've seen of a tb mare family in the top 20 globally for jumper production. i believe is was listed as '9', as opposed to the '9e' you're asking about.

i have no idea how closely related they may be, but i've got a sneaking suspicion there may be someone on here who knows!

it also leads me to wonder if you're asking about this family pertaining to their jumper production?

[risingstarfarm]

it also leads me to wonder if you're asking about this family pertaining to their jumper production?

Guilty

Chin Chin/Carthago Z/Major de la Cour/Don Camillo XX - (Florencia XX) TB family 9-e

I find the pedigree very interesting,

[vineyridge]

http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family9e.htm
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDa...9/Family9.html

The 9-c family that was referred to has been questioned as a member of 9 in the Irish MtDNA research because the MtDNA of the Palotta branch (9-c) which includes Lady Josephine doesn't match the MtDNA of the rest of FF9.

However, it's an absolutely wonderful family in sport and in breeding and racing.

[risingstarfarm]

So all of TB family 9 goes back to the Vintner mare? Horsetelex shows that my horse (family 9-e) goes back to the Vintner mare.

[vineyridge]

All that's been MtDNA tested except for part of 9-c that supposedly derives from the Young Sir Peter Mare. There was a question about a supposedly fabricated pedigree for that branch, and it's the one that has Lady Josephine.
The GSB has kept as good records as possible since about 1780, and Bruce Lowe and Bobinski did their work on mares in the 1890s and 1920s (or thereabouts for Bobinski). Lowe did the research to establish the foundation mares of the families, and he numbered them by how many winners of the English Classics were attributed to each family. Then Bobinski broke the Lowe families down into smaller branches.

A mare from 9-e would not actually be in the same MtDNA family as the superlative females and their produce and descendants who derive from Palotta/Americus Girl/Lady Josephine. But there is a very viable "true" 9-c, which includes Alydar and TV Lark.

9-f and 9-g and 9-h are all branches of 9-e. 9-h is the family of the very, very, very great race mare and broodmare, Urban Sea.

Young Sir Peter Mare

According to the General Stud Book the pedigree given for Young Sir Peter Mare may have been fabricated. She is recorded in the stud book as such:

"YOUNG SIR PETER MARE (son of Doge) MARE,
Her dam by Engineer - Wilson's Arabian - Hutton's Spot - Mogul - Crab - B Bolton - Curwen Barb - Spot - White-legged Lowther Barb - Vintner Mare

1797 ch c Quilter, by Standard Mr Baker
1798 b c by Overton (cut) Sir F Boynton
1799 ch c Garnerin, or Garnera, by Restless Mr Byndloss
*1800 b f Spitfire, by Beningbrough Mr Flint

This pedigree was stated by Mr Baker of Elemore Hall and Mr Butler to have been invented. The Rev Mr Perceval of Acomb bred all these colts, and they were sold to Mr Baker and Sir F Boynton as half-breds, and won many half-bred races.

Mr Baker's entry of QUILTER was by Standard, dam by Sir Peter Pellet (son Espersykes), out of a well-bred mare (pedigree unknown); but the above pedigree is quite possible.

*SPITFIRE was the grandam of Muley Moloch" [GSB 1:354]

While in these cases it is impossible to know the motives or sincerity of all parties involved, the fact that the General Stud Book made note of it is significant.

The family of Spitfire has produced some of the most distinguished horses ever known and it may be desired to maintain accord with traditional Bruce Lowe and Bobinski family numbers. The Sir Peter Pellet Mare (previously said to be Young Sir Peter Mare) should probably be considered a co-taproot mare of Family 9-c.

Also, since Sir Peter Pellet was later called Milfield, the co-taproot mare should probably be called Milfield Mare. The family table would appear thus:

Milfield Mare (f Milfield [ex-Sir Peter Pellet]) ... 9-c
Spitfire (b f 1800 Beningbrough)
Nancy (b f 1813 Dick Andrews)
Muley Moloch (br c 1830 Muley)
Muliana (br f 1831 Muley)

Certainly the MtDNA research shows the part of 9-c which includes Lady Josephine/Palotta isn't the same as the rest of FF9. Which could be evidence that the GSB was right to question the pedigree.

[risingstarfarm]

Thanks for the info.

[Equilibrium]

I was at one of Dr. Hill's presentations when she talked about the "true" families. I was delighted she highlighted 14-a as one of the true ones. That's Stella.

I think it amusing that like 100 years ago a breeding took place and maybe it was a case of, who will ever know but us!

I'm seeing a few 9-e in my research of the Goffs mare catalog.

Terri

[EquusMagnificus]

I was at one of Dr. Hill's presentations when she talked about the "true" families. I was delighted she highlighted 14-a as one of the true ones. That's Stella.

I think it amusing that like 100 years ago a breeding took place and maybe it was a case of, who will ever know but us!

I'm seeing a few 9-e in my research of the Goffs mare catalog.

Terri

Well you need to say more now. Which are the other "true" ones?

[Vesper Sparrow]

I have a 9e gelding. He has some scope, way too much for me (his first and only horse trial... he is very green...my trainer is riding):

http://photohippique.com/index.cfm?f...ID=167&ordre=1

We're doing dressage--he has nice, very correct gaits and a lot of power in the hindquarters.

Pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/catch+buddha

[Equilibrium]

Yeah right! LOL! That conference was like 4 years ago and I have zero idea where the notes are! I only remember 14-a because it was relevant to me!

Terri

[omare]

I thought it was the 9c family that showed up in the list of top jumper mare lines....but I could never figure out how they arrived at that myself. But I could see Erdball (9c) was showing up as the dam sire in a lot of jumpers at that time.

[EquusMagnificus]

Yeah right! LOL! That conference was like 4 years ago and I have zero idea where the notes are! I only remember 14-a because it was relevant to me!

Terri

Oh well!

[netg]

All that's been MtDNA tested except for part of 9-c that supposedly derives from the Young Sir Peter Mare. There was a question about a supposedly fabricated pedigree for that branch, and it's the one that has Lady Josephine.
The GSB has kept as good records as possible since about 1780, and Bruce Lowe and Bobinski did their work on mares in the 1890s and 1920s (or thereabouts for Bobinski). Lowe did the research to establish the foundation mares of the families, and he numbered them by how many winners of the English Classics were attributed to each family. Then Bobinski broke the Lowe families down into smaller branches.

A mare from 9-e would not actually be in the same MtDNA family as the superlative females and their produce and descendants who derive from Palotta/Americus Girl/Lady Josephine. But there is a very viable "true" 9-c, which includes Alydar and TV Lark.

9-f and 9-g and 9-h are all branches of 9-e. 9-h is the family of the very, very, very great race mare and broodmare, Urban Sea.


Certainly the MtDNA research shows the part of 9-c which includes Lady Josephine/Palotta isn't the same as the rest of FF9. Which could be evidence that the GSB was right to question the pedigree.

And I learn more about my horse's pedigree from Viney, as Lady Josephine is in there at least 6 times. I love the info!

[TKR]

Viney, how do you identify which family a particular horse is from? I know my foundation mare's pedigree is mostly the family being discussed here. But when you have horses with many of those names as well as others, what decides which family?
Thanks!
PennyG

[vineyridge]

Tail Female is the Female Family. It's the MtDNA line. But Bruce Lowe and Bobinski couldn't have known how MtDNA was inherited when they set up the family system. If you go to Pedigree Query pedigree and click on a mare and get her progeny, you'll also get the Female Family Number.

I wish the Jockey Club would include that information on its pedigrees as well as the dosage numbers. Now THAT would be really useful.

[JenRose]

Thank you TKR for asking and Viney for answering. Was wondering the same thing!

How do you find out details on the different families? Just found out my mare is 1-w.

So so much to learn about the TBs!!

[ShannonD]

Thanks viney for your incredibly informative posts as well as for sharing those links. Had no idea my mare shared the same family as Deputy Minister, To Market, Exclusive Native and Riverman. The ones I do know, Laudanum, Mansingh and Kris S, don't appear to have updated yet!