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  1. #1
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    Default For those that think Hunters are European culls...

    1st year green and Grand Hunter Champion at Harrisburg 2011 "Dedication"

    Born '05 approved '07 Holsteiner stallion Colorido (Casado-Silvano) Casado is by Coriano, my personal favorite hunter sire

    Reserve Champion 1st year green "Come Monday" aka Tamara

    '03 Holsteiner mare Cassini-Cor de la bryere-Literat

    Out of the Literat mare was Cayce Harrisons amazing horse Coeur by Calido I

    Tamara had a foal in '07 sold at the Foal auction for 16,000 euros.

    Not too bad!



  2. #2
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    Gorgeous horses!!

    But if either had shown the scope of an Olympic showjumper, I doubt they would be showing hunters in the US. That is what is meant by "European cull" (IMHO anyway) Europe doesn't have a market for hunters, so very few are breeding specifically for that discipline. However, if their jumper foal has the temperament and movement for hunters, it is far more valuable here than as a mid-level jumper over there. Marketing, marketing, marketing. They have us beat.

    Have to add that it's the same here. I am breeding for a 1.50+ horse and have sold the ones that don't look promising for that. The prospects that are appropriate for the hunters sell faster and for more $$, but I still consider them culls as they fell short of my goal.

    "Cull" is not synonymous with "worthless", LOL.



  3. #3
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    As few horses make it to the 1.6m level on any continent --that sure makes for a lot of "culls" !



  4. #4
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    Oh Yes, LOL. I'd take a 1.6 cull that wins at 1.5 anytime! But I don't have a need for the 1.40 winner and that one would be sold. (hopefully for $$$$ )

    As I said before "cull" doesn't mean worthless (or even worth less )

    These horses are champion hunters. They don't have many (if any) shows for hunters in Europe. If they were kept in the program their breeders were aiming for they would be mediocre, so they were sold to the states. They ARE Europe's culls. Maybe this goes back to the threads about breeding better horses. If we bred more for the top instead of the middle, our culls might be exceptional too. Not trying to start a flame fest, but something to think about.
    Last edited by tuckawayfarm; Oct. 20, 2011 at 05:01 PM. Reason: add



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
    If we bred more for the top instead of the middle, our culls might be exceptional too. Not trying to start a flame fest, but something to think about.
    My point of view.
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  6. #6
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    My view as well.

    Imported hunters are failed European jumpers , simple as that.

    Also agree that it doesn't mean they are worthless. It means they are what they are. Lucky for them , otherwise they might wind up on a dinner plate somewhere.



  7. #7
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    What is a cull in Europe since only a limited number of horses end up jumping 1.6 m .....and many approved European stallions--holsteiners included- only jumped up to 1.4m? Jumping 1.4 m and under?



  8. #8
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    Omare , there are National GP's all over the world in many countries. If the horse can't do that it's considered as failed. GP does not start at 1.60 meter but this is their breeding goal.

    You do have a few equine enthusiasts that like to tool around a 1.30 - 1.40 meter but not many.



  9. #9
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    Not sure that "imported hunters are failed European jumpers" is worded quite right.

    "Failed European jumpers who have the form, look, movement, temperament and style of a hunter are imported" might describe these horses better.

    To my mind, nothing beats an elegant hunter with his knees up to his eyeballs
    over a fence.

    If a breeder has such a horse, the US is the place to send him.



  10. #10
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    hmmm still seems like their must be a far number of "culls" as how many horses--out of all those so specially bred- eventually jump 1.5m national GPs or up?
    Thank goodnesss for USA hunters and A/O/Jr Jumpers!



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    hmmm still seems like their must be a far number of "culls" as how many horses--out of all those so specially bred- eventually jump 1.5m national GPs or up?
    Thank goodnesss for USA hunters and A/O/Jr Jumpers!
    Omare , there are many 1.50 meter jumpers produced. The lot thins considerably at 1.60 meter



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    hmmm still seems like their must be a far number of "culls" as how many horses--out of all those so specially bred- eventually jump 1.5m national GPs or up?
    Thank goodnesss for USA hunters and A/O/Jr Jumpers!
    The Cull, starts early and is usually the first place the horse ends up.

    He goes to inspection, there they decide by his movement and free jump if he is GP material.
    And if they thick "no way", then the horse is culled and sent to the US.

    Isn't this how it happens?

    so yes, they care culled and sent to the US.
    Now, the number of horses that are kept at that time to be trained to GP and the horses that actually make it to GP may be different.

    but usually, culling is done at the beginning. Before major training.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewels09 View Post
    1st year green and Grand Hunter Champion at Harrisburg 2011 "Dedication"

    Born '05 approved '07 Holsteiner stallion Colorido (Casado-Silvano) Casado is by Coriano, my personal favorite hunter sire

    Reserve Champion 1st year green "Come Monday" aka Tamara

    '03 Holsteiner mare Cassini-Cor de la bryere-Literat

    Out of the Literat mare was Cayce Harrisons amazing horse Coeur by Calido I

    Tamara had a foal in '07 sold at the Foal auction for 16,000 euros.

    Not too bad!
    not quiet sure how your argument of being culled provides for any reasonable cunclusion in the context you've put it?

    a holsteiner can still make a good hunter.
    that doesn't exclude he has been bred in the first place to suit specific holsteiner jumping requirements?
    it doesn''t exclude neither he might serve well as a specialized jumping sire or even succed himself in higher (intl) jumping if only trained accordingly and shown as such?

    the process of "culling" says nothing about the potential ability of any given horse with respect to sport - any (european) gelding that appears in intl sport has eventually been "culled" before.

    the assumption on this board seems to be that "culling" is a negative per se. it is not. it is simply a process 90% of male offspring in any european breeding verband undergo, as such it applies to 45% of all horses being bred within the european breeding community who applies a strict process of selection when it comes to licensing selections.
    licensing selections however are designed to identify BREEDING animals for the population, not sport horses in the first place.
    sport horese will occur from those, eventually.
    nowadays more often than it used to be before.
    question of modern breeding techniques rather than genetic quality/heritability perfomance as such.
    life cover didn't suit sport horses in the old days.
    insemination practices do suit some of them today.

    selecting potential breeding stallions however is entirely about identifying optimal heritage/genetic transfer from one generation to the next.
    a super breeding stallion does not necessarily have to be a super sport horse, neither does a super sport horse have to be a super breeding horse.
    these are two entirely different things.
    colts are being culled age two for various reasons (SPORT success is not one of them as by then none of them can provide for any track record in sport AT ALL) and the only assumption being made by culling 90% of any given male year group is the fact the the committe has to start SOMEWHERE predicting the 10% most appropriate prospectuses with respect to breeding. NOT sport.

    the fact that most breeding stallions nowadays also appear in sport, some even up to intl level, is useful, but serves marketing reasons in the first place and is not part of traditional breeding culture.
    if however, you meet on a stallion (left intact after initial culling) who happend to become an intl sport horse and as such becomes approved in later age by the verbands based on his track record, that doesn't tell you anything about his genetic value as a breeding stallion, either.
    he might as well be an end product.
    he might have succeeded d e s p i t e reasons of failure earlier in the selection process (conformation, lack of natural given gaites, lack of consolidated damline, incapability of jumping at liberty with the desired expression, wrong colour (!) etc etc), obvious flaws which prevented him from being a breeding stallion in the first place.
    eventually, he might turn out to be the super breeding stallion, too, and his genetic value might overcome all his contesters who were not culled at the initial preselection years before...
    you never know.

    culling is about breeding prosepctuses and the attemp to predict reproductive advantages only.
    as a carefully installed selection process has it that in the end only 10% of any given year group are being selected on the basis of ideally "best predictability" by the selection committee.
    as now breed in the world will succeed if any male can cover any mare.
    you have to start somewhere with your breeding selection to assure for a potential "top" quota of reproductive advantages, only.
    that doesn't exclude top horses amongst the remaining 90% - the contrary is the case. top sport horses SHOULD develop from the remaining 90% since after all, these have already been preselected by someone at some stage, otherwise they hadn't even been introduced to the licensing or preselction process in the first place.

    get rid of the negative association of "culling" in the context of stallion selection.
    it is not a stigma per se. it is a natural part of selecting the good from the better, hopefully helping to identify the "best" in the end.
    producers, that is, not sport horses.
    culling the poor and mistaken ones from the good or the better should have taken place way ahead within each breeder's very own responsibility at foal age or little later. ideally, no breeder would introduce a somewhat suboptmal colt to any preselection trial, anyway. these are being gelded at yearlings already. and even those make good and often outstanding sport horses (as any gelding in your intl equipe proves).

    if only breeders anywhere in the world would show equally responisble "culling" methods when it comes to judging their mare base and fillies.
    if they fail to be riding horses, breed them...
    if the process of culling would be run by individual breeders in an equally responisble manner for fillies as it is being practized for potential breeding stallions our sport horse breed would be a league of its own and still produce a big number of excellent sport horses who never got a chance to reproduce themselves.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fannie mae View Post
    if only breeders anywhere in the world would show equally responisble "culling" methods when it comes to judging their mare base and fillies.
    if they fail to be riding horses, breed them...
    if the process of culling would be run by individual breeders in an equally responisble manner for fillies as it is being practized for potential breeding stallions our sport horse breed would be a league of its own and still produce a big number of excellent sport horses who never got a chance to reproduce themselves.
    Agreed. And yes, "culling" is not necessarily a bad word! It's a breeding equivalent to "a man's trash is another man's treasure".
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  15. #15
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    Sorry, I presented this wrong. The meaning and interpretation of cull is not something I ever want to discuss on this board It is not a word I am fond of

    Anyway, I was just trying to point out that the good hunters are just good horses. These 2 horses were considered good horses in Europe and good horses here too. Just wanted to defend the hunters since people were bashing athletic ability of hunters in other threads



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewels09 View Post
    Just wanted to defend the hunters since people were bashing athletic ability of hunters in other threads
    A top hunter is an athletic horse.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    Not sure that "imported hunters are failed European jumpers" is worded quite right.

    "Failed European jumpers who have the form, look, movement, temperament and style of a hunter are imported" might describe these horses better.

    Exactly. Not just any failed jumper makes a hunter. And many horses that would "fail" as hunters (don't have the form, look and temperament) make great amateur jumpers. A good breeder, whether of hunters or jumpers, knows the difference. Since Europeans specialize in jumping, of course they would send the horses more suitable to be hunters to the U.S.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewels09 View Post
    Sorry, I presented this wrong. The meaning and interpretation of cull is not something I ever want to discuss on this board It is not a word I am fond of

    Anyway, I was just trying to point out that the good hunters are just good horses. These 2 horses were considered good horses in Europe and good horses here too. Just wanted to defend the hunters since people were bashing athletic ability of hunters in other threads
    I love the word ! It is clearly responsible for the best mares in holstein today.

    Culling is part of breeding.



  19. #19
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    fanny mae, When I look at the 10 top ranked stallions for Jumpers, it's clear that they all performed at the top of the sport.
    I agree that not all top performer stallions will be top breeding animals but it's clear today that the best breeding stallions are top sport horses.

    Here is the top 10 stallions (WBFSH last ranking) for Jumping, You can't find even one who didn't compete at the international level, and many where Super Stars in the arena.
    1 DARCO - 9937 - 69
    2 CARTHAGO - 8807 - 67
    3 QUIDAM DE REVEL - 7336 - 63
    4 CARETINO - 6439 - 39
    5 BALOUBET DU ROUET - 5604 - 52
    6 HEARTBREAKER - 5388 - 60
    7 NABAB DE REVE - 5081 - 37
    8 KANNAN - 4598 - 48
    9 MR BLUE - 4534 - 24
    10 QUICK STAR - 4366 - 34

    IMHO the traditional way of selecting stallions is not the best way (in all the top Studbooks, traditions are very difficult to overcome)
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  20. #20
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    Yes, but Andy, the Holsteiners on the top of this list were not rejected at their inspection. They were not inferior specimens that later proved themselves in sport. They went through the process, got approved, then competed in sport. I have always said that breeding horses are sport horses, just better.

    Culling is a process of removing breeding stock. Most sport horses in the world are just that. All geldings were culls.

    The statement is that a Hunter from Europe is a failed jumper. If you purchased your animal as a foal, probably not. However, the hunter movement is not what they breed for, so when they see it, they sell it. The failure is that they haven't accomplished what they were aiming for. In this there is a failure. To add, many breeders have many failures a year, because what they aim for is very difficult. 1.5m jumper is technically a failure for many in Holstein, when they were aiming for 1.6m. It doesn't mean it isn't a good horse. Quite the contrary.

    I will say this, they can fail on Type(Holsteiner), movement(Jumper), engagement(Jumper), and athleticism and they can still win as a Hunter. They will only have to succeed on ridability. This would be a failure in my mind.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
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