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  1. #201
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    17,820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnegans Wake View Post
    yes, that is from when Boo Boo was at the broker's lot. His is a gorgeous blood bay now with an uber shiny coat!

    And now that all this has been said and done...I think I need a cocktail and a hot bath. It has been a very stressful few days.

    Thank you to all my fellow COTHers. Although we often do not always agree, you guys know how to rally the troops when needed. I went from tears of frustration to tears of joy thanks to your words of wisdom. And I am even glad the houseguests popped in for a few comments. It shows they were listening and may change things for the better.

    I am logging off and staying logged off for a while. I think I have seen enough drama for the next month!
    OP, Lyme + alcohol = not a good mix. Hot bath, yes. Hot bath with epsom salts even better.

    Glad we could help. But I fear, their "rescue" model needs some serious rescue. Don't let yourself get sucked in again.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  2. #202
    Join Date
    Apr. 10, 2006
    Posts
    7,354

    Default

    FW, I am glad that this story had a happy ending.

    It is unfortunate that things went down the way they did with the rescue. No good deed ever goes unpunished, huh.

    Seems the majority of these groups have volunteers and perhaps even founders with good intentions, but things seem to always take an illogical turn.

    Take care of yourself, ok?
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.



  3. #203

    Default

    New member here, and a member of the Board of the rescue in question. And
    it looks like I'm going to be jumping in with both feet. Not quite how I
    pictured it all the years I've been reading here, but there it is.

    I'd like to first say that I don't know of a rescue out there that hasn't
    been savaged at one time or another by someone with an axe to grind, even Jenn's.

    We have a timeline, starting from our first contact with FW, that does not
    support the story as given (any rescue, knowing that rescue drama is
    inevitable sooner or later no matter how much they try to keep the focus on
    the horses, keeps such, and anyone here who's actually been involved on this
    end of the rescue effort knows it). It is supported by emails from FW,
    along with the responses (yes, there have always been responses) to those.
    Might not have been the responses she was wanting, but responses there were. The emails supporting the timeline are both those to and from the Board and posted by both parties to a YahooGroups list that is our working forum.

    There were times that FW wanted to adopt the horse. There were times that
    she needed him moved immediately. (The latter shortly followed the former,
    and it changed upon later contact.) The neighbors were first mentioned as
    wanting to adopt him and filling out an application as far back as December
    2010; their application was received September 4, 2011, incomplete and on an old form, which along with some other issues naturally delayed the reference checking and approval process. We're still waiting for the signed new application, but to speed things along we went ahead and checked the
    references we had and called the neighbor for more. (FW knows that the
    references were checked as she was one of them.) A lot of this was no doubt due to the Lyme situation. (Several of our board members have serious, even life-threatening, health issues, by the way. We just keep on keeping on in spite of it, because the horses need us to do so. I sometimes wonder if there's something about rescue that speaks to those in these situations, it seems to be so common.)

    The request for financial assistance (made July 4, not last spring)
    mentioned no set amount, and when we followed up (yep, we have the emails) to find out what was being asked for, she said instead that she had a
    potential adoptive situation for him but that it was "complicated" and she
    would explain it later. The complication turned out to be, predictably,
    that the adopter wished the entire adoption fee waived, and that they would
    then pay for more training for the horse. FW had repeatedly tried to get us
    to lower the adoption fee of the horse for her, but when we did so on all of
    our fosters over the course of the summer, she did not act nor did her
    neighbors. This culminated in the request that we waive it entirely.
    Which, as it happens, we have, in exchange for the horse receiving the
    professional training that will help somewhat to protect him should he have
    to be rehomed in future.

    It is our policy, by the way, that the fosters pay for the day to day care
    (feed, housing, ordinary vet and farrier care) and the rescue pays for any
    extraordinary health issues and euthanasia, if need be (which we have only
    had to do, thankfully, twice, for horses who could not be saved and were
    suffering). Procedure is for bills to be submitted from the vet and we
    reimburse, if we have not already (which is our preference) set up an
    arrangement with the vet to be billed directly. (Much cleaner and makes for
    easier record-keeping for everyone involved.) We also request a report from
    the vet; this policy made it much easier to make that hard decision in the
    euthanasia decisions we had to make as we had been in the loop on the
    efforts tried before that became inevitable.

    During all of this we were working hard to find an alternative placement for
    the horse (as well as the other fosters and rescues in need, of course), via
    various lists, via our web page, via our Facebook page, etc. FW was aware
    of this.

    For this post, to keep it from becoming a book instead of a novelette,
    suffice it to say that, as someone stated earlier, anyone (even me, even
    you) can say anything on the internet. The trick is to not jump for the
    bait but to examine, to question, to see if something is presented in a way that is entirely one-sided. And, also, if someone says something about you that isn't true, to check and make sure (as we have) that you have all your ducks in a row and the evidence readily to hand before responding.

    We never stated, or even thought, that euthanasia was a solution for this
    horse, who is not ill, and who is not, based on the reports that we've had
    previously from FW, a danger to himself or others. We have NO idea where FW got that one.

    From the very beginning of the rescue's relationship with FW, it has been
    apparent that she cared very much for her own horses and for this foster
    horse. That has never been in question, and the rescue is grateful for her
    care of this horse, and for her efforts to find a good home for him - the
    home to which he is now going, in fact, despite this dust up on this forum.
    We hold no grudge against her, and we are not, as it was put, "Bullying up"
    on her. We tried to be as responsive to her as possible, however, sometimes
    her requests changed very quickly. At times she may have felt overwhelmed
    by her medical and financial state, and often would change her request, or
    negate it, when she felt differently. This made it difficult to always know
    how to assist her in her fostership. Her venting of this to this board
    seems to be part of this pattern, as it was obvious she was feeling
    abandoned and overwhelmed when, in fact, we were in contact with her
    on a regular basis regarding the placement of this horse with her
    neighbors.

    It is hoped that this will answer the questions that have been raised by
    this. It is longer than intended; however, the board felt the need to
    answer the accusations made, and to address what was quickly becoming a
    character assassination of the rescue and the board members, based upon
    supposition and innuendo. It is hoped that an airing of the facts involved
    in this will clarify the other side of the story.

    As for the rest (euthanasia, adoption fees, the usefulness of make-shift
    electric fencing in a flooding disaster situation when a horse is a clear
    danger to himself and others, all of the other things that got thrown on in
    the frenzy), those are matters that can be discussed privately.

    If anyone has further questions, our contact information is available on our
    website, www.forevermorgans.org, and we will be happy to respond privately to reasonable questions. We do not intend to engage further on this forum, as our time and energies are needed for dealing with the horses at risk. They come first.

    Thank you, I appreciate everyone taking the time to read this.



  4. #204
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 1999
    Location
    Rosehill, TX
    Posts
    7,026

    Default

    dear TexasHorseLady -- you really should clear up the question of non-profit status as soon as possible
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  5. #205
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,798

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by summerhorse View Post
    He isn't even that swaybacked from the picture they showed. Unless he has kissing spine or something like that in which case he wouldn't appreciate being ridden at all! You would think a vet would know tihs but amazingly many of them don't. Tell his new home to get him a saddle that fits him and keep it just for him and he should be fine.

    I agree he isn't dramatically swayed. I've seen MUCH worse ASBs being shown successfully. Just make his new home aware of stuff like Low back pads, and they can keep him comfortable and happy for a long time. There are several models available for english saddles:

    http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-7615.htm

    Cashel even makes one for western saddles
    http://www.cashelcompany.com/product...roductID=10358



  6. #206
    Join Date
    Mar. 30, 2004
    Location
    King, NC
    Posts
    1,880

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
    I'd like to first say ...
    THL: A suggestion. The correct thing to say is "Sorry. We effed up. We will be fixing it so it doesn't happen again. Again apologies if we let someone/a rescue down."

    All the rest is excuses..... and blame on the foster parent.

    I run a rescue. Yes things have happened between us and adopters/fosters/other rescues. Yes it is hard to apologize if you don't think yourself at fault but guess what? You HAVE to because perception is what matters, not your version of the story.
    HaHA! Made-est Thou Look!



  7. #207
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2001
    Location
    Packing my bags
    Posts
    31,882

    Default

    It's Octoberfest, bring it on!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #208
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2009
    Posts
    437

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
    New member here, and a member of the Board of the rescue in question. And
    it looks like I'm going to be jumping in with both feet. Not quite how I
    pictured it all the years I've been reading here, but there it is.

    I'd like to first say that I don't know of a rescue out there that hasn't
    been savaged at one time or another by someone with an axe to grind, even Jenn's.

    We have a timeline, starting from our first contact with FW, that does not
    support the story as given (any rescue, knowing that rescue drama is
    inevitable sooner or later no matter how much they try to keep the focus on
    the horses, keeps such, and anyone here who's actually been involved on this
    end of the rescue effort knows it). It is supported by emails from FW,
    along with the responses (yes, there have always been responses) to those.
    Might not have been the responses she was wanting, but responses there were. The emails supporting the timeline are both those to and from the Board and posted by both parties to a YahooGroups list that is our working forum.

    There were times that FW wanted to adopt the horse. There were times that
    she needed him moved immediately. (The latter shortly followed the former,
    and it changed upon later contact.) The neighbors were first mentioned as
    wanting to adopt him and filling out an application as far back as December
    2010; their application was received September 4, 2011, incomplete and on an old form, which along with some other issues naturally delayed the reference checking and approval process. We're still waiting for the signed new application, but to speed things along we went ahead and checked the
    references we had and called the neighbor for more. (FW knows that the
    references were checked as she was one of them.) A lot of this was no doubt due to the Lyme situation. (Several of our board members have serious, even life-threatening, health issues, by the way. We just keep on keeping on in spite of it, because the horses need us to do so. I sometimes wonder if there's something about rescue that speaks to those in these situations, it seems to be so common.)

    The request for financial assistance (made July 4, not last spring)
    mentioned no set amount, and when we followed up (yep, we have the emails) to find out what was being asked for, she said instead that she had a
    potential adoptive situation for him but that it was "complicated" and she
    would explain it later. The complication turned out to be, predictably,
    that the adopter wished the entire adoption fee waived, and that they would
    then pay for more training for the horse. FW had repeatedly tried to get us
    to lower the adoption fee of the horse for her, but when we did so on all of
    our fosters over the course of the summer, she did not act nor did her
    neighbors. This culminated in the request that we waive it entirely.
    Which, as it happens, we have, in exchange for the horse receiving the
    professional training that will help somewhat to protect him should he have
    to be rehomed in future.

    It is our policy, by the way, that the fosters pay for the day to day care
    (feed, housing, ordinary vet and farrier care) and the rescue pays for any
    extraordinary health issues and euthanasia, if need be (which we have only
    had to do, thankfully, twice, for horses who could not be saved and were
    suffering). Procedure is for bills to be submitted from the vet and we
    reimburse, if we have not already (which is our preference) set up an
    arrangement with the vet to be billed directly. (Much cleaner and makes for
    easier record-keeping for everyone involved.) We also request a report from
    the vet; this policy made it much easier to make that hard decision in the
    euthanasia decisions we had to make as we had been in the loop on the
    efforts tried before that became inevitable.

    During all of this we were working hard to find an alternative placement for
    the horse (as well as the other fosters and rescues in need, of course), via
    various lists, via our web page, via our Facebook page, etc. FW was aware
    of this.

    For this post, to keep it from becoming a book instead of a novelette,
    suffice it to say that, as someone stated earlier, anyone (even me, even
    you) can say anything on the internet. The trick is to not jump for the
    bait but to examine, to question, to see if something is presented in a way that is entirely one-sided. And, also, if someone says something about you that isn't true, to check and make sure (as we have) that you have all your ducks in a row and the evidence readily to hand before responding.

    We never stated, or even thought, that euthanasia was a solution for this
    horse, who is not ill, and who is not, based on the reports that we've had
    previously from FW, a danger to himself or others. We have NO idea where FW got that one.

    From the very beginning of the rescue's relationship with FW, it has been
    apparent that she cared very much for her own horses and for this foster
    horse. That has never been in question, and the rescue is grateful for her
    care of this horse, and for her efforts to find a good home for him - the
    home to which he is now going, in fact, despite this dust up on this forum.
    We hold no grudge against her, and we are not, as it was put, "Bullying up"
    on her. We tried to be as responsive to her as possible, however, sometimes
    her requests changed very quickly. At times she may have felt overwhelmed
    by her medical and financial state, and often would change her request, or
    negate it, when she felt differently. This made it difficult to always know
    how to assist her in her fostership. Her venting of this to this board
    seems to be part of this pattern, as it was obvious she was feeling
    abandoned and overwhelmed when, in fact, we were in contact with her
    on a regular basis regarding the placement of this horse with her
    neighbors.

    It is hoped that this will answer the questions that have been raised by
    this. It is longer than intended; however, the board felt the need to
    answer the accusations made, and to address what was quickly becoming a
    character assassination of the rescue and the board members, based upon
    supposition and innuendo. It is hoped that an airing of the facts involved
    in this will clarify the other side of the story.

    As for the rest (euthanasia, adoption fees, the usefulness of make-shift
    electric fencing in a flooding disaster situation when a horse is a clear
    danger to himself and others, all of the other things that got thrown on in
    the frenzy), those are matters that can be discussed privately.

    If anyone has further questions, our contact information is available on our
    website, www.forevermorgans.org, and we will be happy to respond privately to reasonable questions. We do not intend to engage further on this forum, as our time and energies are needed for dealing with the horses at risk. They come first.

    Thank you, I appreciate everyone taking the time to read this.
    There are two sides of course!
    It's funny how fast your organization came to a "resolution" once you were outed in public. Have you EVER given FW any sort of compensation for her care of YOUR horse?? Even if you are dealing with Quirky Personalities which happens in the horse business......PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING, if you are organized enough to have breathing, thinking board members, why no written contracts with fosters? Shame on YOU, for the way this went down! And for the record, I believe your organization acted like a bunch of BULLIES, that just chaps my a**



  9. #209
    Join Date
    Aug. 27, 2011
    Location
    Northeast PA & MD
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Forever Morgans,

    If you could clear up some of the questions others have asked, and some of these new questions, please?

    1. Do you have proof of filing for your 501c3?
    2. In order to solicit donations in NYS (and you have a NYS address, yet are a PA LLC) you need to be registered with the Attorney Generals Office. Are you registered in all the states you solicit donations from?
    3. You are registered in the State of PA as a LLC, not a Not for Profit. Why are you calling yourself a not-for-profit organization.
    4. The verbiage on your website states that people can claim a deduction for the expenses related to fostering. This is not true.
    5. As an PA LLC, have you filed your annual registration certificate?
    6. You are not registered with the PA Charities Bureau, why?
    7. How is your financial accounting handled? Which member assumes the tax liability for Forever Morgans? Do you have financial statements that are open to public inspection?

    Thank you. Your answers will help ease the minds of potential donors and supporters.

    ETA: I ask these questions because a close friend was interested in adopting Arabella, but a search of your organization brought up confusing information.
    Last edited by bigfatpony; Sep. 23, 2011 at 10:51 AM. Reason: more information and typo



  10. #210
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2007
    Posts
    3,928

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
    During all of this we were working hard to find an alternative placement for
    the horse (as well as the other fosters and rescues in need, of course), via
    various lists, via our web page, via our Facebook page, etc. FW was aware
    of this.
    My question is why, if one of your fosters said that she could no longer afford to keep the horse, you were continuing to bring in more rescues as it sounds like you are saying here. I've worked with rescues that operate similarly to yours, and if a foster home backs out for any reason it's critical to not bring in any new animals until you're sure the ones you have are in a safe place. If FW was struggling financially and let you know that (even inconsistently) then why didn't you place him in one of your other foster homes rather than bringing in new rescues?

    Also, you claim the adoption fee was already lowered this summer. Was it lowered to $700 or was that the original fee?

    And yes, please clear up the confusion about your 501(c)3 status.



  11. #211
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2004
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Posts
    4,551

    Default

    $20 says none of the questions posed to the rescue are ever answered.
    Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
    www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com



  12. #212
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    5,003

    Default

    Just in case TxHL reconsiders her decision to fire one shot and then disappear -
    I really wanted to know about the incident Tamara brought up. I googled and figured out the name of the farm and the doctor involved (wasn't difficult) but won't post them here since apparently the Mods deleted these references from Tamara's post.
    That incident, more than anything FW posted, made me think your organization was irresponsible. I could kind of see how y'all might not want to waive your adoption fee (I'm sure you have bills like everyone else) - but the other? Wow.



  13. #213
    Join Date
    Nov. 23, 1999
    Location
    South Coast Plaza
    Posts
    20,433

    Default

    But keep digging a deeper hole, we could use the entertainment!
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  14. #214

    Default

    I deleted the farm name in my original post from the old email so far as I can tell the Mods have not fiddled with it whatsoever...I posted the Federal Court case here for people to read back in the spring as the judge said that this was going to enter into a brave new world of running amok on the Internet now being actionable...
    Tamara



    Quote Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
    Just in case TxHL reconsiders her decision to fire one shot and then disappear -
    I really wanted to know about the incident Tamara brought up. I googled and figured out the name of the farm and the doctor involved (wasn't difficult) but won't post them here since apparently the Mods deleted these references from Tamara's post.
    That incident, more than anything FW posted, made me think your organization was irresponsible. I could kind of see how y'all might not want to waive your adoption fee (I'm sure you have bills like everyone else) - but the other? Wow.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  15. #215

    Default

    my post from july 9...


    Roy et al.

    In case you are worried about my posts let me give you a little background.

    Some weeks ago my husband was subpoenaed to a case in FEDERAL court involving a less than reputable person breeding horses and their lawsuit against a person out of state who claimed all sorts of things about them on the internet.

    Now let it be said that we had no personal regard for this person,were glad to be rid of them as a customer, but were compelled by summons to go.

    Some of the things the out of state person claimed online was that the horses were starving,would be dead in three weeks,had no hay (this is where we got stuck in the middle of it) and so on.

    Well,she was buying a semi load of really nice hay a month from us.The out of staters even called and asked to buy a load of hay "for her".My husband having no idea what was going on "out there" said "She wants another one so soon?We just sent one Friday" <????>

    Anyway FFWD two full years to Federal Court.His Honor found that while the horses were not devalued by the chatter (which was claimed) and that while the person acted out of genuine concern for the horses and not malice (that was the libel slander bit) the whole affair certainly caused the horses' owner pain and suffering and he AWARDED HER $7500 for that.

    Now I try to tell people when these discussions arise, about this case as a warning to tone it back because, real or imaginary claims not withstanding, this case has set a precedent.Something I would have not believed had I not been in the middle of it.

    regards,
    Tamara Howard
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  16. #216

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post

    There were times that FW wanted to adopt the horse. There were times that
    she needed him moved immediately. (The latter shortly followed the former,
    and it changed upon later contact.) The neighbors were first mentioned as
    wanting to adopt him and filling out an application as far back as December
    2010; their application was received September 4, 2011, incomplete and on an old form, which along with some other issues naturally delayed the reference checking and approval process. We're still waiting for the signed new application, but to speed things along we went ahead and checked the
    references we had and called the neighbor for more. (FW knows that the
    references were checked as she was one of them.)
    I am always baffled by the amount of paperwork people seem to think is necessary in these situations. I don't understand why you need a billion references, either. Wouldn't your foster home, and say one other person, suffice? You had the ability to place a horse that was marginally adoptable, and you dragged your feet over procedural nonsense (old form! what are you, the IRS?).

    A lot of this was no doubt due to the Lyme situation. (Several of our board members have serious, even life-threatening, health issues, by the way. We just keep on keeping on in spite of it, because the horses need us to do so. I sometimes wonder if there's something about rescue that speaks to those in these situations, it seems to be so common.)
    Low blow to say "everyone else is really ill" and she is too sick to be rational. Why would you even write this? It's quite condescending.

    The request for financial assistance (made July 4, not last spring)
    mentioned no set amount, and when we followed up (yep, we have the emails) to find out what was being asked for, she said instead that she had a
    potential adoptive situation for him but that it was "complicated" and she
    would explain it later. The complication turned out to be, predictably,
    that the adopter wished the entire adoption fee waived, and that they would
    then pay for more training for the horse. FW had repeatedly tried to get us
    to lower the adoption fee of the horse for her, but when we did so on all of
    our fosters over the course of the summer, she did not act nor did her
    neighbors. This culminated in the request that we waive it entirely.
    Which, as it happens, we have, in exchange for the horse receiving the
    professional training that will help somewhat to protect him should he have
    to be rehomed in future.
    Follow the money: your organization got people to donate money that is not tax deductible (you aren't a 501c3), to pay AC4H, a horse broker, for this horse, got someone else to keep it for a year, and then held out to resell the horse rather than give it away. Or do I not have that right?

    Why didn't you just give the horse away a long time ago? You had some people that wanted him, so do a quick check to make sure it's not a scam to resell him or send him on the truck, and move on.

    You state several times that FW did not want the horse, but no one in your organization hooked up a trailer and came and got the horse, right then. Why not? Clearly your foster home was having some issues. Take the horse to another place, if you have any doubts about the stability of a foster placement, and then sort it out. No one did that.

    I am glad the little horse landed on his feet.



  17. #217

    Default

    I will have to access my PACER account for the case number so this will be a few minutes :>

    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  18. #218

    Default

    2:08-cv-00342 Flower v. Loncosky et al
    Dennis H Inman presiding

    in the East TN Federal court in Greenville TN
    case settled 4/25/11


    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  19. #219

    Default

    I want to add, with all the reference checking and paperwork, when your FOSTER home said they could no longer take care of this horse, you did nothing about it. She was very reliable, of course, but still, if a horse seems like it's in any marginal situation, I would have pulled that horse out.



  20. #220
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    566

    Default

    Hmmm...The spin doctor has come to the rescue..heehee....I am sure it took some time to make sure just the right wording was used to try to take the edge off of this rescue's inability to handle this situation in a timely manner.....I have to agree with Chester's Mom....An apology can go a long way.....AND it is in the best interest of your organization to offer one.....A little humble pie is in order.....

    The cornerstone of your type of organization relies on the good nature and generosity of others to keep things going......I see that all of the BOD members reside in different states across the country, yet none seem to be in PA, where you are getting these horses from.....Is that correct?......How does that work exactly and do any of the BOD have the ability to take in any of these horses even temporarily or are you mainly a phone tree kind of organization?....I can't wrap my head around the fact that there doesn't appear to be a "home base" for these horses to fall to that you go out and solicit funds for.....I would think that there are times when the organization has to use a boarding facility from time to time....

    I am hopeful that it was with good intentions and not ego that you formed your organization, but with all ventures sometimes the plan needs tweeking.....and a reality check......

    OP, glad to hear that Boo-Boo will have a soft landing....
    Crayola Posse: Mulberry



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  3. was looking for home for moms horse..... no longer.
    By Horsecrazy27 in forum Giveaways
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    Last Post: Sep. 6, 2009, 06:03 PM
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