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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2013
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    Default So, I want to breed my mare...(sorry, long, I have lots of questions)

    ...may sometimes be scary to hear, but I think I want to go for it! I have a maiden 15-year-old TB with a solid show record in the low JR/AO jumpers and some lower level eventing. I've had her for 10 years, she is my heart horse, and I am breeding her with the intent of keeping her baby forever, no matter what it turns out to be (i.e. whatever discipline it seems most suitable for, I'll be happy doing)

    So, how do I start? I've been stallion researching, but I'm kind of lost on how to "pick the right one." I mean, I'm pretty much just a sucker for good conformation and the ability to jump large obstacles. I have a "top 10" picked out so far, but I am just not knowledgeable enough to determine who would be the best match.

    I guess the things I would want to improve on my mare is that she's a bit delicate-boned, and I'd like to breed for a bit more body substance, but I'm short and I don't want anything much taller than she is - 16.0 hands (I would look ridiculous on a 17 hand monster), and she's a bit neurotic. The neurotic-ness does NOT bother me, but it makes her a horse that's a bit higher maintenance than most, so I guess I'd be looking for a non-neurotic stallion? Don't get me wrong - I *LOVE* a hot horse, but could do without some of her little neurotic hot horse quirks. I don't really want to end up with something super quiet and kick-along - to me that is a miserable ride.

    Then, talk to me about the breeding fees - I am a little confused about the breeding fee, booking fee, collection fee etc. Some places they seem to be all together, and some are separate. I guess I understand that if the mare does not "catch" the first time, you can order more semen without the breeding fee, but just the collection fee? But is there another booking fee? How does this usually work?

    Then, I guess I want to have my mare inspected, but how do you choose which registry to have her inspected with? Do you choose the same breed as the stallion? Do both parents have to be registered/inspected to have the foal branded?

    Meh, this is all so overwhelming!


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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 20, 2011
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    751

    Default

    I can't answer all of your questions, but I will first point out the obvious:: if your mare is a little hot and quirky, !) rethink your plans to breed her. 2) find a stallion that will really add some quiet to the foal,. I'm saying this thinking of "what if something happens and that foal HAS to find a new home? much easier to place a quieter horse.

    that being said, you'll know if there is an extra charge if the ad doesn't say "$xxx stud fee, "booking and first collection included" and yes, if your mare doesn't catch the first time, you would pay another collection, and shipping. very important to have a breeding exam on your mare prior to starting this journey. and have a very good repro vet.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2004
    Location
    Virginia. We Do Ponies!
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    11,825

    Default

    Pedigree?
    Photo of your mare?
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver, Equine Insurance Specialist



  4. #4
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2009
    Location
    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    2,636

    Default

    Breeding fees, collection etc will vary by stallion. Get a contract, look it over, ask any question to the stallion owner. Most are very helpful.

    My only comment is, only really breed, EVEN if it is your heart horse, if you are ok with an exact carbon copy of the mare, neurosis and all.

    I have a fabulous 4 foot mare I will never ever breed, pedigree and performance aside. Her nuerosis on the ground is too much for me, and most people.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2004
    Location
    The Redneck Riviera
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerTrick View Post
    Then, talk to me about the breeding fees - I am a little confused about the breeding fee, booking fee, collection fee etc. Some places they seem to be all together, and some are separate. I guess I understand that if the mare does not "catch" the first time, you can order more semen without the breeding fee, but just the collection fee? But is there another booking fee? How does this usually work?

    Then, I guess I want to have my mare inspected, but how do you choose which registry to have her inspected with? Do you choose the same breed as the stallion? Do both parents have to be registered/inspected to have the foal branded?

    Meh, this is all so overwhelming!
    Just to answer these questions for you. The first part of the question is regarding breeding contracts which will vary from stallion owner to stallion owner. The "breeding fee" is the actual stud fee. The collection fee is what it costs to collect the stallion and process the semen for shipment. There is usually a shipment fee to get the semen to you. Some stallions also have a booking fee to "hold" your place in the breeding season - and that is normally non refundable. All of these things will vary by stallion. Read the contract to see. Some will include it all to make it easy on the mare owner, some will charge separately, some will charge the collection/shipment in the first stud fee but if they have to ship again will charge you a separate charge for that...

    As for "catching". After you have the mare bred you want to have her checked around day 14 - 17 to see if she is pregnant. If she catches then you are ok, if not you are looking to see when you are going to be calling for semen again (hence the collection/shipment fees). MOST stallions in the US have live foal guarantees (LFG) so once you pay the stud fee we are getting you semen to get the mare pregnant - again read the contract. Some stallions are only good for so many years. There typically isn't another "booking" fee for the mare not getting pregnant unless you end up selling the breeding or using another mare or extend the contract etc. But those collection/shipment fees are always there.

    Inspections - probably easiest to go with the registry that the stallion is approved with (not the breed, his APPROVAL - he might be "Hannovarian" for example but approved OLD). The requirements for the mare approvals will vary by registry.

    Hope that answers some of the questions.
    Emerald Acres standing the ATA Approved Stallion, Tatendrang. Visit us at our Facebook Farm Page as well!



  6. #6
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2013
    Location
    Gulf Coast
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    Default

    I am okay with a carbon copy of the mare - she is scopey and brave and will jump anything you point her at, but may spook at the person walking by with an umbrella, or the tractor with the ring drag, or whatever. I do NOT want a quiet horse.

    She is by Castle Guard out of Lisa's Island, half brother to Laine Ashker's Anthony Patch who placed at Rolex and won the Advanced at the AEC's this year. http://www.pedigreequery.com/turnpike+queen

    I don't have any true conformation shots of her, but here is a collection of various pics:

    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...603_4713_n.jpg

    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...03189131_n.jpg

    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...393_5452_n.jpg

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...20_n.jpg?lvh=1

    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...04_n.jpg?lvh=1

    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...34543_49_n.jpg

    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...663_6207_n.jpg

    https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...983_6879_n.jpg

    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...83_n.jpg?lvh=1

    https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...453_8242_n.jpg

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...363_6321_n.jpg


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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 29, 2013
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    51

    Default

    There is a site (http://sporthorse-data.com/) where you can look up alot of information on potential sires and get an idea about their get.

    I would talk to your vet and would have them do a gyn exam on your mare before you breed her. This is to make sure that there are no issues that need to be taken care of before you breed her (minor infection that needs to be treated, conformation that might suggest that a caslick's procedure should be done, consideration of whether or not to give her regumate after she is confirmed in foal to help her maintain the pregnancy, get her vaccines up to date before breeding and plan for vaccine schedule during her pregnancy, check her worming schedule pre-breeding and during pregnancy). I would also have her seen by her dentist before you breed her since if you anaesthetise for the dentist her won't be able to do this while she is pregnant.

    Registration rules vary from registry to registry. Many registries require that the mare be inspected before they will register the foal, so you should ask about this. You can google the different registries websites for a lot of this information. I also called registries (I registered my filly KWPN-NA) and the breed offices are very helpful. I found all of the breeding farm managers to be very knowledgable, patient, friendly and helpful to first time breeders. Good luck!


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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 14, 2001
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    Lexington, KY--GO BIG BLUE!!
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    Default

    As for making a decision about which stallion to breed her to, here's what helped me make my mind up:

    1.) Would I like to ride this stallion? Am I in love with the way he goes, is he my "type" mentally and physically? Do I feel like he is better than my mare?

    2.) Are the stallion's offspring CONSISTENT in type, and is this type suitable to me? I don't just want to see one or two outstanding foals...I want to see a wide variety of them, out of many mares, and I want to be able to recognize the sire in them. Ideally I want to see what he produces out of a mare very similar (in bloodlines and type) to mine. This can take a lot of research, googling, and digging but to me it's most important. Sires do not always replicate themselves!

    3.) I, too, was hoping more for a carbon-copy of my mare, not something radically different. Of course she could be improved (as they all can). Stack heritability in your favor by breeding like-to-like, rather than total opposites (rarely do they blend just like you want; instead you're likely to end up with a mixture of extremes).
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2005
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    best place so far
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    Default

    Like a previous poster said, the first thing to do is have a breeding soundness exam performed on your mare. Once she gets the "go ahead" then you need to look objectively at your mare and make a list of her strengths and weaknesses conformationally speaking.

    It is also helpful if you know her blood lines and what they tend to throw. For example I have a mare by the Hanoverian stallion Davignon. He is known to not pass on the best hind limb conformation. Even though my mare's hind limbs are decent I am careful to chose a stallion with good hindlimb conformation in case those "hidden" genes come through.

    Chose a stallion that is strong in the areas you want to strengthen. If your mare has a long back do not pick a stallion with a short back. Genes do not work that way. Pick a stallion with an ideal back length. Does that make sense?

    Next is getting her approved in a registry. If she a JC papered Tb (and you have those papers) she is eligible for most major breed registries (AHS, GOV, RPSI, etc.). I would look at each registries websites to see who has an inspection closest to you. That sometimes becomes the deciding factor. If you have a few options then consider which registry the stallion(s) you are interested in are approved. That will sometimes become the deciding factor. Once you pick which registry you are planning to present your mare contact the registry to make sure you have everything you need to get your mare presented and hopefully approved. You may want to plan on presenting her to two different registries in case she does not get approved in one, you have a second option. Historically speaking AHS is the most strict on Tb mares, GOV next and the other ones fairly lenient.

    Now approvals are probably going to be after you have your mare bred so plan accordingly. Maybe chose a stallion that is approved in multiple registries in case you have to prsent your mare to more than one.. SOme very brave souls do not present their mares for approvals until after they have foaled. I would not be bold enough to do this! The benefit is only having to transport your mare (and now foal) to inspection once.

    Regarding stallion protocols. Call the stallion owner you are interested in about their fee structure, collection dates, etc. Generally speaking there is a booking fee, stud fee, collection fee and shipping fee. The booking fee is a non-refundable fee (usually around $500) that assures you a spot in the stallion's roster that year. That amount is subtracted from the stud fee once that is paid. For example, booking fee is $500, stud fee $1500. You would pay the $500 booking fee to hold your place, then send the $1000 when you are ready to breed. Collection & shipping fees are paid each time a shipment is sent (hopefully only once).

    Now the bad news that should be said. Breeding can be dangerous. Your mare is 15 years old and things can go wrong. Just last year my mare needed colic surgery 24hrs post foaling. Mares can die, foals can die. Foals can have all sorts of health issues. Just be prepared. Do your research, be well read. Although since you are already seeking out help, you are on the right track! Good luck!
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html


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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2003
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    Where is gets way too cold
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    Default

    Your mare looks like a lovely gal

    I just want to point out a couple of things that have been mentioned above, to make sure you give them adequate consideration.

    1) You say she is your heart horse. Breeding is not without risk. Complications during pregnancy can cause serious illness, injury, or death. Will you be upset with yourself for breeding her if, god forbid, something awful happens? Unfortunately complications are not that uncommon. They can also bring a lot of expense. It isn't just breeding fees. If she develops placentitis, requires a C-section, ruptures a uterine artery, has a bad dystocia and needs to go to a clinic for intervention, or the foal is born sick, etc etc are you financially prepared for hundreds to several thousand dollars of expenses?

    2) You may have an uphill battle breeding a 15 year old maiden. Older mares are, as a general rule, harder to get and keep pregnant. When they have never had a foal before that is doubled (quadrupled?). That isn't to say it's impossible by any stretch, but it can be more difficult and that again can mean a lot more expense, and of course there is no guarantee at the end of the day and several thousand dollars worth of vet bills and semen later that you have a pregnant mare and later, a foal to show for it.

    I am in no way trying to dissuade you from breeding your mare, just bringing these things up to make sure you are making an educated decision.

    Good luck!
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2013
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    Gulf Coast
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    Default

    Guys, thank you SO much for all the info, I really appreciate it!!

    I am graduating from vet school in May (yay!!), so I have the veterinary side of things covered - her breeding will be under the supervision of all four of the certified theriogenologists at school while I'm on rotation in March/April, and has already had a pre-breeding soundness exam. My job after I graduate is at a practice with a surgeon and surgical facility, so any and all emergencies that could come up are easily accounted for. The one benefit of becoming a vet and never making any money is that least our own vet bills are cheaper.

    I had already contacted a few registries about their inspection process, so hopefully I'll hear back soon.

    I am still confused about this though: say a stallion is a certain breed (lets say Oldenberg), but is approved in multiple registries (Oldenberg, Belgian, Hanoverian etc), and I wanted to breed my mare to him, do I need to have her inspected through the Oldenberg registry? Or say, could I take her to a Belgian warmblood inspection? What, then, would the foal be registered as? Or can you take the foal to either an Oldenberg or Belgian inspection?


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  12. #12
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    Mar. 11, 2006
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    My job after I graduate is at a practice with a surgeon and surgical facility, so any and all emergencies that could come up are easily accounted for. The one benefit of becoming a vet and never making any money is that least our own vet bills are cheaper.

    Blume Farm and I are both veterinarians (as are others on the board). While what you state is often true in a relative sense I can tell you from experience that these costs are still very real and still add up. We don't get materials, etc for free and have you guaranteed with your future place of work that employee's get their services for cost? for cost plus 10%, etc? Boarding and care still are very real costs/expenses to the place of business and is usually passed on. Also when I was an equine veterinarian, my horses always came last because that's just the way being the low man on the totem pole worked. It wasn't that they were last in the eyes of the practice......it's that I was always working and rarely if ever got to see my own horses. I too am not trying to talk you out of your plans, just making sure you've really secured your plans and expectations.
    Ranch of Last Resort
    www.annwylid.com


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  13. #13
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    May. 4, 2013
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    Gulf Coast
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    Thanks, exvet! It's always nice to get an opinion from others in the field.

    I worked at this practice in college, so I'm familiar with their employee pricing and policies. I have a "nest egg," per se, that I put a little bit of money into each month for pony emergencies (which came in handy when one pulled a shoe and stepped on a nail and punctured her navicular bursa last year...), and the mare I'm planning on breeding is insured.

    As far as time goes, I'll have my horses at home, so I'll be able to see them at least twice a day.


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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 18, 2013
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    Niedersachsen, Germany
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerTrick View Post
    I am still confused about this though: say a stallion is a certain breed (lets say Oldenberg), but is approved in multiple registries (Oldenberg, Belgian, Hanoverian etc), and I wanted to breed my mare to him, do I need to have her inspected through the Oldenberg registry? Or say, could I take her to a Belgian warmblood inspection? What, then, would the foal be registered as? Or can you take the foal to either an Oldenberg or Belgian inspection?
    I'm also new to breeding, expecting our first foal next month. However I have been looking into the requirements of the different registries. We have three mares, the pregnant mare is a Hanoverian. The other two are Westfalen. As we live in the Hanover area, and only want to have to pay for membership to one society we are going to take the two Westfalen mares to Hanoverian inspections to get them approved for Hanoverian breeding.

    What this means when selecting stallions for this coming breeding season is:
    - The Hanoverian mare can be bred to any stallion as long as he has Hanoverian approval, doesn't matter if he is a Westfalen, Oldenburg, German Sport Horse etc, so long as the Hanoverian society have approved him as a Hanoverian then everything is fine
    - The two Westfalen mares can only be bred to a Hanoverian branded stallion

    I am not entirely sure if this holds true for other registries, but in general I think it is important for you to decide which registry you want your mare to have approval for. That then determines the possible stallions and the resulting registry that the foal can then be registered in.

    Hope that makes sense!



  15. #15
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    Aug. 6, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerTrick View Post
    I am still confused about this though: say a stallion is a certain breed (lets say Oldenberg), but is approved in multiple registries (Oldenberg, Belgian, Hanoverian etc), and I wanted to breed my mare to him, do I need to have her inspected through the Oldenberg registry? Or say, could I take her to a Belgian warmblood inspection? What, then, would the foal be registered as? Or can you take the foal to either an Oldenberg or Belgian inspection?
    The foal theoretically could be Oldenberg, Belgian, or Hanoverian in that example. You'll want to find out the policy and process for approving your mare with those registries and, if it involves an inspection, how close to your location the inspection will be. Then you would take the foal to the inspection of whichever of those registries both sire and dam are approved by.

    The experienced people here can probably tell you which ones are more likely to approve a TB mare and the inspection tour is usually posted on the registry website.

    Just one other thought - if you have a short list of 10 stallions, talk to the manager or owner about what each one crosses well with. They want fabulous foals on the ground too, and I've been pleasantly surprised with the honest conversations I've had with stallion owners about whether a mare would be a good fit in their opinion. And then choose the one that excites you the most regardless of popularity or the popular vote. Enjoy!



  16. #16
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    Dec. 13, 2012
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    Fredericksburg, va
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    Why not just buy a foal from an experienced breeder?
    First and foremost about the horse.
    Rose Bud Ranch Sporthorses
    Like Us On Facebook!


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  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerTrick View Post

    The one benefit of becoming a vet and never making any money is that least our own vet bills are cheaper.

    That just made me laugh! I sure wish I had a larger professional courtesy discount when I paid my $15K-ish vet bill at NC State last year for colic surgery on my too old to be insured 24 hour post foaling colonic torsion mare. Seriously though, it sounds like you have your ducks in a row regarding insurance, repro care, hopefully unneeded surgical care and a bit of an "oh-sh*t" savings account. I think exvet and I have been vets and horse owners/breeders long enough to have lived through the many unexpected, and expensive, scenarios.

    Regarding breed registries...it is a confusing process that I think befuddles everyone at the start. There are many breeds/registries of warmbloods, Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Dutch (KWPN), Belgian WB, Swedish WB, Danish WB, Trakehner, Westfalen, etc. Many/ most of these different WB registries actually share many of the same blood lines which adds to the confusion.

    The next confusing thing is when a stallion is presented as, for example, a Hanoverian stallion approved Oldenburg (GOV), KWPN, RPSI. What that means is that as a foal that stallion was presented, papered and branded a Hanoverian. When he was old enough he went through the Hanoverian stallion approval process and testing and became a licensed Hanoverian stallion. He was then allowed to breed to hanoverian mares and the foals be branded/ papered Hanoverian. The stallion owners may then decide they would like their stallion to be able breed to Oldenburg mares, Dutch mares, etc. In order to do this they have to present their stallion to each registry individually to get approval (sometimes it is more involved than just showing the stallion to the registry, but for the sake of ease we won't go through all those steps). If they are approved that stallion can then breed a mare from that registry and the resulting foal would carry that brand/ papers. To use a real life example, look at Donnerhall. He was branded/ papered Oldenburg. Therefore, any Oldenburg papered mare bred to him would have the resulting foal branded Oldenburg. He was also approved for breeding with the Hanoverian, Dutch, Westfalen, and many other WB registries. Therefore, if I bred my Hanoverian mare to him the resulting foal would be branded/ papered Hanoverian. This is why so many WB registries share the same blood lines. Many fabulous stallions were approved to breed in many different WB registries.

    Now the same can hold true for a mare. You have a Tb mare which is a breed accepted in most all of the WB registries. However, you have to present your mare for approval before her offspring will be papered/branded within the registry. Different registries have different criteria for what they will "accept" into their book. Traditionally speaking the AHS is the toughest, GOV the next and the others more lenient (I know there are exceptions, but this is generally accepted to be). Additionally, you could decide to have your mare approved for breeding in more than one registry. Say your mare was presented and approved by the AHS. Your mare would then be "a TB mare approved for breeding by the AHS". Same scenario as the stallions described above. In this example if you breed your AHS approved Tb mare to an approved AHS stallion the foal will be branded/ papered Hanoverian.

    Does that help? Or make matters more confusing
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  18. #18
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    May. 4, 2013
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    Thanks, Blume Farm!

    That makes a lot more sense.

    So for the mare approval - what would get passed vs. failed? Is the judging just on conformation and movement? Do they need to free jump? How fit do they need to be to go to an inspection?

    The mare that I'm breeding had surgery last year after puncturing her navicular bursa and hasn't really come totally sound - she's still consistently 1-1.5/5 lame (although probably sounder than 95% of school horses, lol!!) with bar shoes on. I hop on her bareback and trial ride around the property occasionally, but she hasn't been in any work for about a year. Is that something they take into account, or would she be automatically out for a low-grade lameness?



  19. #19
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    Is that something they take into account, or would she be automatically out for a low-grade lameness?
    They have to judge the horse in front of them but tell them anyways. Sometimes....those mares do better with a spectacular foal by their side. My mare had an accident but scored higher (I think) because of the foal at her side. She only got a 6 for a trot as it is a 6 trot. She just missed premium.
    However if you take her with a foal you miss the original judgement and breeding recommendations. If you have your heart set on a foal for yourself no matter what....it may be a benefit to her to have a very nice foal by her side.



  20. #20
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    She probably has a 6 trot as well. She has an AWESOME walk (always got 8's and 9's on our dressage tests) and a good canter, but trot - meh.

    Do you walk and trot them in hand, or is it free lunging around the arena? She moves better at the trot free-lunging (although I guess that may be true for a lot of them).



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