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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep. 27, 2005
    Posts
    52

    Question "Dumb Bump" for lack of better term

    Okay, I've searched the Forums here and searched online and have not found an answer to the question that I"m going to ask.

    So, here goes:

    Is there a genetic traceability to the slight but distinct bony enlargement on some Thoroughbreds foreheads? It's almost but not quite something to give them a bit of a misplaced Arabian look.

    Some have it, some don't. I haven't done an exhaustive analysis of pedigrees with facial profiles. Wouldn't be asking here if I had.

    What I have heard, off-hand from an Old Codger is he called it a "dumb bump" meaning they were less trainable, less compliant. He said it came from, and here I am not sure who he said, Nasrullah? Nearco? This was 20+ years ago.

    Personally, I haven't found the natural bone structure on a horse's forehead to indicate trainability! But, I was looking at the forehead of a horse with said bump, while all my others don't have it at all, and wondered if anyonelse had ever heard of it being referred to in a special way.

    TIA



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 27, 2010
    Posts
    40

    Default

    FDF, There was a study done by a polish author Shorkowski on
    Thoroughbred and Arab head size, shape, Roman and dish shape noses. I think his study was more on speed.

    The Fair Play family provided most of the bad actors and
    there are many stories dealing with problems of trying
    to train the sons of Hastings and Fair Play. They
    continue to survive, however, because of their great
    courage, their endurance and their will to win. They
    have shown a great ability to jump and have become
    famous as steeple-chasers and cross country horses.

    Two prominent English lines which have not proved
    suit-able from a temperamental standpoint are those of
    Blenheim II and Sir Galahad III. They have both
    produced outstanding race horses in large number but I
    have seen a large number of sullen and moody Galahad
    horses, while the nervous tension prevalent in the
    Blenheim line is generally acknowledged.

    What Bull Hancock regarded as a mark of quality in all the Bold Rulers that could run. "You can pick the Bold Rulers out on their conformation," Bull once said. "I see the same musculature as Nasrullah. They all had an extra layer of muscle beside their tail running down to their hocks. It is a good sign when you see it in a Bold Ruler. It means strength and speed."



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    1,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDF View Post
    Okay, I've searched the Forums here and searched online and have not found an answer to the question that I"m going to ask.

    So, here goes:

    Is there a genetic traceability to the slight but distinct bony enlargement on some Thoroughbreds foreheads? It's almost but not quite something to give them a bit of a misplaced Arabian look.

    Some have it, some don't. I haven't done an exhaustive analysis of pedigrees with facial profiles. Wouldn't be asking here if I had.

    What I have heard, off-hand from an Old Codger is he called it a "dumb bump" meaning they were less trainable, less compliant. He said it came from, and here I am not sure who he said, Nasrullah? Nearco? This was 20+ years ago.

    Personally, I haven't found the natural bone structure on a horse's forehead to indicate trainability! But, I was looking at the forehead of a horse with said bump, while all my others don't have it at all, and wondered if anyonelse had ever heard of it being referred to in a special way.

    TIA
    I think you might be referring to what is called a "jibba." This is a big bulging forehead frequently found in Arabians. I have a TB mare with one. She has a teeny tiny muzzle and this gives her a very arabian look. Linda Tellington-Jones has a book that talks about all the various head shapes and the personality traits that go along with them.

    The book is called, "Getting in TTouch with your Horse." It is based on beliefs of the bedouins. I had never had a horse with this head shape and when I asked Linda about it she asked ask what the horse was like. I told her she was very nice and she smiled and said I had a good one. I guess not all of them are easy to deal with.

    In general, a dished face is a sensitive horse and possibly over reactive horse. If your horse has a relatively straight profile with a bump above or below the eyes, this is considered a "quirk" bump. I have a horse with one and boy, is he a clown. Very complicated!

    Some of these anatomical features make a bit of sense when you consider things like eye placement and other qualities that affect the way they perceive the world. Lots of them really ring true. However some of them and their personality traits seem to cancel each other out so it can get confusing.

    So a "dumb" bump may just refer to a horse that some people find difficult to deal with. I find them sensitive and often quick learners. One might say the same thing about a roman nose which can be a very bold horse that might also be pushy. It depends on what kind of horse you like!



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 3, 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,523

    Default

    Wow, phrenology, really? I love how Linda can get it all wrong, but just gloss it over as a one off. Tonight we're gonna party like it's 1799.
    "Rock n' roll's not through, yeah, I'm sewing wings on this thing." --Destroyer
    http://dressagescriblog.wordpress.com/



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    1,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kinnip View Post
    Wow, phrenology, really? I love how Linda can get it all wrong, but just gloss it over as a one off. Tonight we're gonna party like it's 1799.
    Much of Linda's book focuses on overall conformation and its effect on a horse's balance and therefore its behavior and performance. Head shape, as an aspect of conformation, has a lot to do with how the horse perceives the world through its eyes, ears and nostrils because of how they are placed on the head. This is especially true when considering the conformation of the mouth and the horse's ability to accept and respond to the bit. Also, the size of the head and how it is attached to the neck has a direct influence on the horse's balance.

    So the shape of the head really has no more influence on a horse's balance, behavior or performance than general body conformation does on balance, behavior or performance.

    Linda's study of thousands of horses over many decades have led her to the conclusions she writes about in her book.

    As with all training methods and theory, take it or leave it.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 27, 2005
    Posts
    52

    Smile Maybe I'll just call it the "Sweet Spot" LOL

    Thanks ya'll, appreciate the responses I found an anatomy book online of the equine skull and if I read it right, this is a bit of thickness in the nasal bone located over what appear to be sinuses between and below the eyes. Sounds like it is a normal variation within the species less than a heritable characteristic in the breed.

    I'm glad I asked! I think I'll just call it his "sweet spot" since that's a nicer name than "dumb bump" and a lot more accurate as he IS a very sweet boy

    However, that phrase about "partying like it's 1799" is hilarious and I'm totally stealing it



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    11,364

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    Lucky has a borderline-Arab dish to his head. He's about as nonreactive as they come, but given he learns quick when he feels like it he's not dumb.

    I would say it has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or behavior. Just genetics and which ones carry a stronger link to the more typey Arab ancestry lines. (Darley Arab is prominent in the Hastings/Fair Play family, if that post was actually talking about dished heads. And while they were hot, those horses were almost too smart if anything. Actually, okay, Fair Play and Man o' War were HOT, Hastings and his dam weren't hot, they were psychotic and homicidal. I doubt that had anything to do with their heads beyond what was inside it.)



  8. #8

    Default

    I would say it has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or behavior. Just genetics and which ones carry a stronger link to the more typey Arab ancestry lines.



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