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  1. #1
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    Oct. 16, 2002
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    Default Heed Bruce`s advice--

    Somewhere Bruce Davidson made a comment to the effect that "we" (collective all of us, I guess) might want to do well with a horse at one level BEFORE moving up, and that if we can`t be WINNING (or, I suppose, placing very well) at Rolex and Fair Hill, we might want to think twice before spending 15-20,000 to go "experiment" in Europe.
    I notice that a couple of high profile falls at some of this weekend`s events suggest that the grumpy old genius is probably right, as usual!
    Not that we shouldn`t gamble, I don`t think he meant that, but we should have that solid base of successful mileage with our horse FIRST.



  2. #2
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    Default

    *Calculated Risk* is very different than *gambling* .

    I saw some *gambling* on the Burgley videos .



  3. #3
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    May. 23, 2006
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    Denny

    I certainly hope that you are not for one minute suggesting that horse/rider combinations not be sent to europe for development. I am a FIRM believer that in order to be the best you must test yourself against the best whether that be against horse/rider combinations and or courses.

    I am not, however, a believer in sending unproven combinations to europe.

    Surely, a combination should be showing good form before embarking on the expensive journey across the ocean.

    Let's remember that there are many Badminton/Burghley first timers. Some crash and burn and other go on to a respectable showing.

    Many riders from around the world base themselves in the UK for the sole purpose of competing against the best day in and day out and at every level.

    If we were to take the money out of shipping North American Riders to europe then would we be having this conversation?

    Would some be a bit more forgiving of a whoopsie or a bad day if the huge amounts of grant money were no part of the equation?

    I think back to 78....where the IND Olympic gold medalist was jumped out of the tack on XC, where an Olympic team member had a stop at a fairly straight forward bounce fence. Because that team won a medal and there was not the expense of shipping to these championships, all was forgiven.

    It does seem to me that when shipping costs are involved we tend to to expect more.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Denny,

    Who exactly are we talking about???

    Mike and Icarus? Finished 19th at Rolex this year with 1 stop.

    Because that's the only combination that fits the bill of falling and coming from this side of the pond...

    The only other would possibly be Kyle and Madison Park. (But they did well and were Silver Medallists at WEG, so not exactly out of their league. )



    ~Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  5. #5
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    Default

    I`m also thinking about wealthy youngsters who buy established big time horses, and instead of maybe going training a couple of times, then getting some solid success at preliminary, basically "earning" their way, before climbing up the pay scale.
    Who protects these kids? They clearly haven`t the years under their belts to make always wise decisions for themselves.



  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    Denny,

    Who exactly are we talking about???

    Mike and Icarus? Finished 19th at Rolex this year with 1 stop.

    Because that's the only combination that fits the bill of falling and coming from this side of the pond...

    The only other would possibly be Kyle and Madison Park. (But they did well and were Silver Medallists at WEG, so not exactly out of their league. )



    ~Emily

    I agree.



  7. #7
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    Default

    Denny, the person who protects the kid is the person who is being paid handsomely, indeed, being supported basically by, the kid or kid's connections. They have a pretty vested interest in protecting the kid because it's the means of their existence. I am sure the horse, the kind of horse, the kind of ride it is, training it, managing it, and competing it are first and foremost in their minds, because it's bed and breakfast and phone bill reimbursement.....so I would say the trainer/coach would be the one responsible for protecting the kid.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    I`m also thinking about wealthy youngsters who buy established big time horses, and instead of maybe going training a couple of times, then getting some solid success at preliminary, basically "earning" their way, before climbing up the pay scale.
    Who protects these kids? They clearly haven`t the years under their belts to make always wise decisions for themselves.
    See now I am thinking you're talking about Nina and Paddy at 5 points.

    If that's the case then does she get any credit for her finish at the Parducbice CCI***? Or her win in the CIC*** on Jazz King??

    (None of which were funded by USET)

    ~Emily

    ( I want to say I have no strong feelings on Nina or any of the issues around young riders and made horses. I was trying to clarify who Denny is referring to in this thread because it is confusing to me. Especially considering that Denny has promoted Michael P for years. So more confusing that he'd come and imply that Mike should have stayed home. I am honestly just a bit lost in who we are talking about here.)
    Last edited by Xctrygirl; Sep. 5, 2011 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Clarification.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  9. #9
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    Mar. 29, 2008
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    Default

    The comment about Kyle and Madison Park is far off....Silver Medalists at WEGS, etc...the fall at Burghley was due to a thrown shoe, so Parker slipped before the fence. He was having a lovely ride prior to-he definitely deserved to be at Burghley and is heading to Blenheim this weekend. Kyle himself is very experienced, and I'm sure the pair will be selected to the CDN team for next year.



  10. #10
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    Default

    I'm also confused.... not only about if the OP is referring to MP, but KC and NL represent other nations, thus not funded by the USET. Additionally, the OP has given me the impression (in previous posts) that he holds NL's coach in high regard. I doubt she would let one of her riders go out unprepared.
    You know you're a horse person when your mother, who has no grandchildren, gets cards addressed to Grandma, signed by the horses, cats, and dogs.



  11. #11
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    Jul. 23, 2008
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    Default

    I was wondering how long it would take for someone to start a thread on this (if it is in regards to Ninas latest results, still confused OP as are others who you are directly referring too).
    Honestly, I am not sure if I am more disappointed in the thread being started in the first place or who the OP who started it is.



  12. #12
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    Default

    Not sure what the OP was referring to but I would note that the two most successful US pairs at Burghley, Boyd and Sinead, were experiencing their first funded foreign competitions after having had significant success at home.

    I don't think anyone has ever argued that it's not beneficial for all riders to compete internationally, the question seems to have been how to best use limited grant funds.

    I do think this year is unusual in that there aren't more than 2/3 obvious candidates for London and there's not a lot of time to sort the remaining pairs that look a lot alike, warts and all, especially if you don't want them to have to do Rolex next year.

    If we had a fall 4 star, it would eliminate some of this dilemma. I do think sometimes grants are handed out because we're scrambling to identify possible team horses and possible options either missed Rolex for whatever reason or are still questionable after Rolex.



  13. #13
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    Default

    I haven't had the time to watch all of the videos, or even most of them, but honestly, the six or so that I did watch, including some of the best in the world (of all the countries), I got real tired of hearing banged horse shins over MANY of the SOLID fences.

    What's with that??



  14. #14
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    Default

    Not sure where you are going with this one Denny...we should be glad there are a handful of riders who can test the waters on their own dime so what funding there is can assist the likes of Sinead and Boyd. If they don't go to Europe the US is not going to be able to compete on the world stage.
    Kate



  15. #15
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    Default

    OT, but were the NL falls at 5 Points, just rider falls or were they horse falls?

    edited to add:
    Think I answered my own question from the 5 Points Live Results at evententries. Horse fall with Paddy; rider fall with Butts Leon.

    Am I reading them right?
    Last edited by vineyridge; Sep. 6, 2011 at 09:16 AM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  16. #16
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    Default

    I do think it probably was a good thing that both Will Faudree (sp?) and Will Coleman went over and had their horses go lame.

    Why are the horses going lame? If everyone says, "It's just an abcess (accidents happen), which it may well be, especially after seeing so many hooves hitting those solid fences, then I say you don;t really understand the Big Picture, which needs to be consistent and progress without interuptions with injuries. There is a lot of bruising going on there, Don't friggin' kid yourselves. That is not good for horses feet.

    Not supposed to hit the friggin' jump . Once in a hundred fences. Those painful bonks really stress a horse. They can cause *stone bruising* high up on the hoof wall. Stifle injuries.

    HOMEWORK is lacking. This is about foundation management and schooling (management is as important, if not even more important than just schooling) of the horse and then the rider on the horse.

    At least we didn't present the kamakazee pilot image that (IMNSHO) we have in the recent past.



  17. #17
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    Feb. 12, 2010
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    Default

    this happens alot in the hunter/ jumper world - if you can buy it, you can ride it.

    however, the amateurs tend to top out at 1.30m, limiting the amount of damage to horse and rider...
    www.TackMeUp.com
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    Free tools for Trainers and Riders



  18. #18
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRider View Post
    If we had a fall 4 star, it would eliminate some of this dilemma. I do think sometimes grants are handed out because we're scrambling to identify possible team horses and possible options either missed Rolex for whatever reason or are still questionable after Rolex.
    Bingo.

    It is good to go overseas and ride other venues. It is also good to direct some funding to more than one 4* in this country. Lower wear & tear on horses, riders & pocketbooks. Oh it will be very expensive and all kinds of trouble to do another 4* here ... why, it will cost as much or more as sending them all overseas for weeks and months of boarding, lodging, transportation, training, etc. ... but, it *is* a golden opportunity for the riders to buy European tack in Europe, for sure.



  19. #19
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    Ok to have a fall four star...what venue first of all would suit? What venue has enough land, first of all. The track is LONG for a four star. The second need is footing. Autumn in the US is dicey for weather. What facility would have not only the track, but the footing?
    -- upgrade Fair Hill
    -- " Southern Pines
    -- Lexington, VA horse center (is it big enough?)
    -- Plantation, PA (not big enough probably)
    -- NJ Horse Park, NJ (not big enough probably)
    -- Georgia (Chat Hills? Poplar?)

    It is fun to dream about how we could put together a fall four star. There would be immense obstacles but how fun to overcome all the naysayers and negative nabobs.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  20. #20
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    Jul. 21, 2008
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    Default

    All due respect to the OP, but he seems to have problems with "certain" riders he feels are unworthy versus others.



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