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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2011
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    295

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    Is it bad that when we got our WCHR awards last week & they came with the USHJA logo candy, my first thought was COTH & "ohhhhh so that's what they're doing with our money!"



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2001
    Location
    Aiken, SC
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    2,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Nona Garson's summer shows at The Ridge a prime example of great schooling shows. No office fee, no non-member fee, $30 per class. Great jumps, good judges, etc. And, believe it or not, a neck ribbon for champion and reserve. When was the last time you got a neck ribbon at a rated show?
    This probably belongs on the TB thread but the last time I got a neck sash at a rated show was last week for a TB Celebration division. LOL

    I do agree that some of the unrated shows are comparable to the USEF approved ones.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2008
    Posts
    186

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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    I don't find the new fee that high, and very similar to fees my family pays in other sports for sanctioning organization.

    I'm not saying I like the way USHJA runs 100%. I think improvements can be made, but it's certainly not the worst organization I've dealt with.
    Its not JUST the $65 fee though. If I want to take my green horse to a couple of B or C shows next year, here are the MANDATORY fees I will have to pay:

    USEF $55
    USHJA $65
    USHJA Horse $30
    USEF Drug/Admin $20
    USHJA Zone $2

    BEFORE I EVEN GET TO ENTER 1 CLASS!! And that is if I don't want any type of year end awards from either organization. What am I getting for my $172???

    Maybe managers need to start offering more local USEF shows for people not chasing points? That way you get the advantages of a USEF show without the high fees.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2001
    Location
    Fairfax
    Posts
    1,763

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    Actually, my comment was made with the full scope of fees in mind.

    I just don't agree with you. From my experience, these fees are on par with other sports associations.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
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    1,704

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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    Actually, my comment was made with the full scope of fees in mind.

    I just don't agree with you. From my experience, these fees are on par with other sports associations.
    Ok
    I've mentioned that I've spent over $900 this year on USEF/USHJA fees. And I'm projecting that it will come to well over $1000 at year end.
    Care to share what sport costs that much in fees and what the breakdown is?



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 1999
    Location
    Averill Park NY and Citra Fl
    Posts
    5,578

    Default

    Bueller?? Bueller???
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2008
    Posts
    186

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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    Actually, my comment was made with the full scope of fees in mind.

    I just don't agree with you. From my experience, these fees are on par with other sports associations.
    I'd like to know what other sports you are involved in! Something more expensive than horse showing? Wow! Maybe I am just naive, as I haven't been involved in a lot of other sports. But even when you do pay fees for other activities there is usually some benefits, such as year end awards or banquets or something. You are getting some sort of return there.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2001
    Location
    Fairfax
    Posts
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    Default

    Soccer league costs can run anywhere from 400 to 1000 a year. Plus tournament participation fees.



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2006
    Posts
    1,509

    Default yea, maybe...

    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    Soccer league costs can run anywhere from 400 to 1000 a year. Plus tournament participation fees.
    But I have yet to see a $500k soccerball that takes a $50k truck and trailer to get to the games
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers.
    http://bluemoongrafixva.webs.com



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Posts
    1,704

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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    Soccer league costs can run anywhere from 400 to 1000 a year. Plus tournament participation fees.
    Like in soccer mom? Danger Danger !! Scary !!!

    Perhaps 'tournament participation fees' can equate to entry fees.
    Let's see, if I was to include entry fees and stabling fees for two horses that comes to somewhere around $20K plus the already mentioned 1K in USHJA/USEF fees.

    And if I factor in vanning, trainer show fees, my motel expenses, board, at home training fees, equipment, vet, farrier....
    You get the point right?

    This is an expensive sport but it would be nice to get something in return from USHJA that is relevant to most of the membership ( and Hunter Derby's are not in that category )



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2011
    Posts
    81

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    No way are horses like soccer in terms of fees.

    The cost to get a player pass (which is what I would say is equivalent to a USHJA membership) is right around $35 for the year. We have two organization that you could choose from and each are about that same price.

    Oh, and all of the coaches need it too and MUST pass a background check prior to them issuing the card to the coaches. That would be a great idea for our trainers too but they'd probably tack on another $20/year to do that...

    For our money we get regional and national championships. We also get medical insurance for any soccer related injuries that occur at the practice field or games. We also get an Olympic Development Program which each state runs and then it feeds into the Regional and National Teams. ALL of our
    Olympians are developed this way. Some states subsize the additional costs but others make the kids pay. It maybe adds another $300/year if you make the state team.

    As far as tournaments go, $900 per tournament is pretty high. That is for the entire team of 18 kids. Roughly $50/kid for a tournament. So, you can go to a high powered national calibre tournament in soccer for $50 for the weekend!

    Your training fees are for the year and average about $2000 (high end for a national calibre team which trains all year round). That averages to $167/month. Of course you do have to pay your travel, hotel and food for away touraments and the team splits the coach's hotel, food and travel expenses too but that is generally not more than $50 each per tournament.

    League fees are generally around $1000/year and that gives you over 10 games including referees. Divided by a squad of 18 it would be about $55/year.

    I don't know where you are playing soccer but I think you are getting ripped off!



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2001
    Location
    Fairfax
    Posts
    1,763

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    You're off base. Yes overall soccer is cheaper. The topic at hand here is not the overall cost of the sport, but the reasonableness of the association fees.

    All of you were complaining about the USHJA fees as the governing body. Very similar in some respects to governance of a soccer league.

    If your concern is overall cost of the sport, that's a different deal.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2011
    Posts
    81

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    No, I don't think that you are comparing apples to apples here.

    The USHJA doesn't run the shows, show managers do. They simply license them. They don't even keep track of points, the USEF does.

    US Youth Soccer is a body like that. They license soccer tournaments, hold licensing courses for coaches and generally manage the youth soccer in the US. They license a state championship tournament which feeds into a regional champion tournament which feeds into nationals. The states administer them and the teams pay to participate.

    They also sponsor a second tier tournament (equivalent to our B/C shows) with the same state, regional and national championship series.

    Each player who plays in a US Youth Soccer tournament must have a player card. It is an annual fee. It ranges between 9-30 (and I think I am estimating high here) depending on what level you compete. If you are doing recreational soccer it is low, in state touraments only next level and then travelling out of your home state the most.

    US Youth Soccer manages a heck of a lot more people and touraments and players than USHJA does. They do have a national staff, headquarters and a website. They are also responsible for managing our Olympic Development program which has state, regional and national teams.

    Horse shows would be like tournaments. You choose to participate at sanctioned events and they cost more than non-sanctioned events. USHJA doesn't really do much for the horse shows other than charging them and us fees. We were fine with USEF...(AHSA)



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,405

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    Quote Originally Posted by FormerShowHunter View Post
    I'd like to know what other sports you are involved in! Something more expensive than horse showing? Wow! Maybe I am just naive, as I haven't been involved in a lot of other sports. But even when you do pay fees for other activities there is usually some benefits, such as year end awards or banquets or something. You are getting some sort of return there.
    I do a sport that's easily as expensive as riding (I figure $600+ for every dance competition; I think the most I ever paid was $2500 for dancing all four styles at Ohio Star Ball and that was with not doing all five dances in Latin. That fee gets paid to my pros and covers my entry fees and their expenses.) I'm also in the dance equivalent of 2'6"-3' ammys at A shows--pro-am. We are getting more respect than we used to, but you will still run into plenty of am/ams who turn up their noses. Thing is, the big NDCA competitions make their money off us.

    When the NDCA wanted to start requiring us to register and pay them (right now, we can do a free registration if we want, most don't) both the students *and the pros, and the comp organizers* threw such a massive stink the NDCA quietly shelved the whole thing. Our issue was not so much one relatively low member fee, it was "What exactly am I getting for my money, other than the 'privilege' of being allowed to keep doing what I'm doing?" As the answer at the time was, "Uh...you can say you're registered?", no one was buying it.

    Two lessons from this: the trainers and show organizers protesting would carry a lot of clout (THEY'RE the ones who'll feel a pinch if all the fees mean their students say 'You know what, I'm skipping this.') Second, if all an organization can say about what the majority of their membership get for paying their fees is "You get a little card and you can keep on entering what you've been entering", they probably ought to rethink what services they're offering. The NDCA heard not just from the dancers that they didn't see what they'd be getting, but they heard loud and clear from the organizers and the pros "You will be harming our livelihood."



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct. 28, 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    499

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    Honestly, big whoop. The fees are peanuts. The real costs of horse showing are found elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by FormerShowHunter View Post
    Its not JUST the $65 fee though. If I want to take my green horse to a couple of B or C shows next year, here are the MANDATORY fees I will have to pay:

    USEF $55
    USHJA $65
    USHJA Horse $30
    USEF Drug/Admin $20
    USHJA Zone $2

    BEFORE I EVEN GET TO ENTER 1 CLASS!! And that is if I don't want any type of year end awards from either organization. What am I getting for my $172???
    ESNZ:
    Membership fee: $55 (senior non-graded)
    Horse registration: $35 (non-graded)
    Show Hunter discipline start fees: $68

    So if I want to jump around little show hunter courses I'm paying $158 before I set foot in a class. (And non-graded limits you to training and equitation classes only.)

    I don't get end of year awards, local divisions, incentive schemes or 'anything' for my money other than the right to compete.

    As far as I'm aware, the only awards I get are if I win a class, win the national high-points series, or win a national title at our annual HOY show.

    That said, there are small, unrecognised local events I can take my horses to - but they're not of use if I'm wanting to start building a competitive record for a young horse, and they don't offer pretty ribbons or speschul divisions to cover every competitor, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    Ok
    I've mentioned that I've spent over $900 this year on USEF/USHJA fees. And I'm projecting that it will come to well over $1000 at year end.
    Care to share what sport costs that much in fees and what the breakdown is?
    Comparing to FSH's breakdown - how? I can imagine only through running multiple horses?

    Quote Originally Posted by grandprixjump View Post
    But I have yet to see a $500k soccerball that takes a $50k truck and trailer to get to the games
    I don't understand the connection. Are you saying the fees should be lower because our other costs are higher? How is lowering such a tiny fee going to be anything more than a drop in the bucket? I mean, the entry fees are a super tiny percentage of the purchase cost of such a horse and truck/trailer. And would a rider with such a horse really be tootling around in the lower levels getting 'nothing' from their membership fee? Where's the logic?



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2009
    Posts
    442

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    Well, I'm sure glad I haven't really considered doing an A show yet. I'll be just peachy hopping around fences at local shows, even if they're run by bad show managers.. waiting around all day to show is much easier than shelling out hundreds of dollars on top of a useless membership fee with no incentives just to do so in a pretty ring 2 times.

    The thing is, it's like dealing with someone in charge that no one likes. Everyone hates what they do, yet no one says or does anything about it, they just continue what they're doing, being complete sheeples (yes, sheeples!) about it, figuring that maybe someone else will stand up and do something.

    It's up to the rest of the people who make up a large portion of the membership - I'm not sure if those percentages are available somewhere, but I'm talking about the amateurs who receive no incentives for being a member when they probably contribute to the largest amount of participation in those shows. People would rather complain behind the anonymity of a coth forum handle, but if you're REALLY interested in turning down this idea, why don't you protest it? Do something about it? Get some signatures, do an online petition. I know you're outraged, especially after the perfect timing of the USHJA interview for what they "do" for you... so why wait?

    I would love to start something new, but have no one with the show management experience to help begin with, or really any idea where to start. I thought it would be nice to start something in my area of NY, and thought about the possibility of splitting the state into areas with zone qualifiers and finals, but that seems a little out of my reach as someone who doesn't know much about running or holding a show or show management organization.


    You can always talk about the possibility to do something, but it's up to the people to get it going, because we sure know all the higher ups won't do anything about it. ;-)



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2011
    Posts
    156

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    Wow.... The letter makes it sound like they are almost concerned about keeping their "loyal" members. They know we are roped into their trap by no choice of our own...
    Then the letter tries to make it sound like we should be uber grateful for only having to pay $65 dollars for all these years. Well $65 was a lot seven years ago, heck it still is now!

    I'm creating the HRATSUSHJACOA


    Horse
    Riders
    Against
    The
    Stupid
    U
    S
    H
    J
    A
    Crap
    Organization
    Association



    Free membership! Bring your own drink and picket sign!



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Posts
    1,704

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalidascope View Post
    Honestly, big whoop. The fees are peanuts. The real costs of horse showing are found elsewhere.

    Comparing to FSH's breakdown - how? I can imagine only through running multiple horses?
    You may think it's tiny but I suspect you don't show much.
    At $17 a horse for USEF/USHJA fees per show compute 2 horses and 20 shows each. That's $680
    Two horses at $75 each for USEF recording and $30 each for USHJA recording. $210
    One farm recording USHJA at $100
    One USEF/USHJA membership at $55 each for $110.
    Plus WCHR rider and maybe more than 20 shows by the end of Nov.
    comes to $1100 so far. I was wrong about it being only around $900 LOL

    It's all the nickel and diming.

    I think USEA for example, does not require USEF membership or horse recording till you get to around Prelim level. I'm not familiar with the fee structure for eenting but as I recall Begiiner, Beginner Novice and Training are USEA rated but do not require horse recording with USEF.And I think rider USEF membership requirement starts at a pretty high level.
    I hope an Eventer can correct this or list the USEF requirements.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jun. 14, 2009
    Location
    SE VA
    Posts
    433

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    For those of us REALLY pinching pennies to be able to make it to a couple of A shows, it really is a BIG deal. I had to think long and hard about shelling out the $140(USEF+USHJA+horse recording) this year before ever even entering a horse show. Those membership fees ARE a big deterent to those of us who really can't afford to do this, but really, really want to. Then, you take a look at all the fees charged at the show, before you enter the first class, and all of a sudden it is, "Holy cow, I just can't afford to do this at all." I still wouldn't be able to do it, if it weren't for a couple of special angels, who know who they are, that have given me special help. My already not high salary hasn't been raised for 3 years, because of the bad economy, but NOTHING else seems to be following THAT trend.



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2008
    Posts
    186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    You may think it's tiny but I suspect you don't show much.
    At $17 a horse for USEF/USHJA fees per show compute 2 horses and 20 shows each. That's $680
    Two horses at $75 each for USEF recording and $30 each for USHJA recording. $210
    One farm recording USHJA at $100
    One USEF/USHJA membership at $55 each for $110.
    Plus WCHR rider and maybe more than 20 shows by the end of Nov.
    comes to $1100 so far. I was wrong about it being only around $900 LOL

    It's all the nickel and diming.

    I think USEA for example, does not require USEF membership or horse recording till you get to around Prelim level. I'm not familiar with the fee structure for eenting but as I recall Begiiner, Beginner Novice and Training are USEA rated but do not require horse recording with USEF.And I think rider USEF membership requirement starts at a pretty high level.
    I hope an Eventer can correct this or list the USEF requirements.
    Yep, prelim and above only. Nothing is required below that.



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