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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2003
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    Texas
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    I am a small breeder who rides H/J and some dressage, I am trying to figure out if H/J riders are wanting to learn more about the top pedigrees and breeding lines. The dressage riders as a whole are much more interested in this area, but the H/J riders seem to be lacking behind. Don't quite know why this is, but probably stems from the trainers.

    Anyway, as a breeder, rider and member of regional & national breeding organizations I am on the show committees and am wanting to work on educating H/J riders at the shows about breeding (not the acutal process of breeding but of bloodlines, etc). Wondering if you all can help me on some ideas on doing this in a way that people will be interested and attend.

    Some thoughts I had were to have the in hand breeding classes held at the time of a dinner/recreational activity at the bigger shows. Have pamphlets to hand out the the in hand classes.

    Any other thoughts from those of you who ride & show but don't breed would really help us breeders to give/teach you what you all are looking to know.

    If you feel this is all worthless and H/J riders just don't care...then I'd like to know that too...why waste our time.
    Kona Wind Farms
    www.konawindfarms.com



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2003
    Location
    Texas
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    234

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    I am a small breeder who rides H/J and some dressage, I am trying to figure out if H/J riders are wanting to learn more about the top pedigrees and breeding lines. The dressage riders as a whole are much more interested in this area, but the H/J riders seem to be lacking behind. Don't quite know why this is, but probably stems from the trainers.

    Anyway, as a breeder, rider and member of regional & national breeding organizations I am on the show committees and am wanting to work on educating H/J riders at the shows about breeding (not the acutal process of breeding but of bloodlines, etc). Wondering if you all can help me on some ideas on doing this in a way that people will be interested and attend.

    Some thoughts I had were to have the in hand breeding classes held at the time of a dinner/recreational activity at the bigger shows. Have pamphlets to hand out the the in hand classes.

    Any other thoughts from those of you who ride & show but don't breed would really help us breeders to give/teach you what you all are looking to know.

    If you feel this is all worthless and H/J riders just don't care...then I'd like to know that too...why waste our time.
    Kona Wind Farms
    www.konawindfarms.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2001
    Location
    Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,446

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    I like the program idea but it may be hard to impliment. Here at least most enter the morning of the show, so that would creat a logistical nightmare. Announcing pedigrees and or name might also cause concern and people yelling "politics" from the rail. Can't please everyone! You could however, announce this info when the class results are finalized.
    Lisa Coletto
    Standing Elite Hanoverian stallion, Cabalito
    www.pecannuts@aol.com



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2004
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    795

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    No, we do not really have the time to care because we take all of the cast offs from the other disciplines and try to give them a career in ours. We are able to do this because we have far more people in our discipline than in other disciplines and can generally find a place for them. H/J (or hunt seat) riders range from the USET level to the back yard pleasure rider. If they do not make it as a dressage horse we can try hunters, if they don't make it at the track we can try jumpers, if they do not make it in those we can try hunting, pleasure, etc. If they are not "A" show quality we can try "B", "C", or local shows.
    So this would be my guess as to why we are not as interested in breeding. If you polled our group however I would guess that the numbers would be closer than you think.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    If a H/J owner is buying a youngster? They care about bloodline.
    If they are buying a stallion? They care.
    If they are buying a mare with an eye toward eventual breeding? They care.

    If they are buying a 12 year old gelding to do Juniors with? They don't care.

    Knowledge of bloodline is fine and more of us know more then many seem to think BUT most buyers buy the jump and the show ring experience/record, not bloodline.

    The show world in general is largely populated by parents who buy a horse for the kid to compete until it is sold when they go to college. They have no intention of breeding and care nothing about pedigree. Even at the breed shows where breeding is public knowledge, many really don't care.

    "Good horses always have good parents but good parents do not always make good horses" is an old saying in the breeding business. Good parents can give their offspring a better chance at it but so much more is early training and attitude-and attitude is influenced by early training.

    So we look at the jump, at the horse, at his show record, at his attitude and maybe at who his parents are but breeding is the least important if the horse can do the job.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  6. #6
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    Feb. 17, 2004
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    Very well put find eight, another view that is quite true.



  7. #7
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ComingAttraction:
    No, we do not really have the time to care because we take all of the cast offs from the other disciplines and try to give them a career in ours.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We posted at almost the same time or I would have led with this quote.
    From failed racehorses to Eventers that hate jumping into water to a Dressage hopeful that can't piaffe to a QH who just ended up with a Hunt Seat owner, we get them all...and at a price most can afford.

    While breeders are increasingly contributing horses specifically bred to win in the Hunters, they are still in the minority and, like other disiplines, winning on the line does not translate automatically into winning over fences.
    Expensive too.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep. 10, 1999
    Location
    NJ
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    2,872

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    I hate to say it, but NO people (professionals)
    don't care. We have sold or have had offers many a time at ringside and it was because of appearance and/or movement etc. After the fact, of course, we told the potential buyers who it was by and out of, and maybe they knew ofa horse or two by that stallion or not, but it wasn't going to influence the decision or the amount of money paid for said horse like it would in the TB sale ring. We as a whole need to focus on what the dams have produced NOT who the sires are.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 10, 1999
    Location
    NJ
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    Another topic that should be opened up for discussion in the future is one of "what wins on the line in the Hunter Breeding Ring" is not the same "type" of horse that will win a Conformation Model Class. We need to work on our judging criteria if this is the case. I have heard this from MANY prominent "AA" circuit judges.. Scary but true.



  10. #10
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Absolutely. The MARE raises the baby and baby learns by watching the mare.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    234

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    Thanks for the opinions...unfortunately what you all have said is what I thought would be said. I agree what they do in the ring is what's important, however it's not by mistake that the same breeding lines continue to show up in the USEF year end points (leading sires). So really breeding does matter in the top rated horses, maybe not at the smaller shows.

    I think it's absolutely rediculous that H/J riders (actually it's more the hunters than the jumpers) riders don't even want to learn and be educated. Why should anyone ever want to limit their knowledge? Most jumper riders and trainers are knowledgeable about breeding, b/c they know breeding is the fundamental thing in addition to training that will make a Grand Prix horse...
    Kona Wind Farms
    www.konawindfarms.com



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2004
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    Bellevue, WA USA
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    I'm glad that someone is interested in pedigrees; I'm sorry but I'm not. Can the horse jump?



  13. #13
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    Jan. 7, 2000
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    The burbs of Chicago
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    Most people care about the brand than they do the breeding behind it. I have to say when someone is looking to purchase a new mount they are looking for physical features over the breeding. Sometimes the horses papers are not transfered or "lost" so they won't know what the breeding behind the horse anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/sigh.gif I like to know, but would it cause me to pick one horse over another because of it, no. The reason is I would be more concerned about present performance on said horse than how it's parents did.
    I want to be like Barbie because that bitch has everything!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2000
    Location
    VA, but visitor to Garrison & Toronto
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    13,792

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    I have never NOT asked and been interested in the breeding of any horse I've looked at/purchased. But, I've always liked the horse first, asked about his/her breeding second. I have never bought purely based on breeding.
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  15. #15
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    Feb. 2, 2001
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    FL
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    I hate to say it, but in my mind the USEF leading sire records are only good to a certain point. If riders and trainers do not care about the breeding of a horse how many of the USEF registered horses out showing do you think actually have their sire/dam/breeding listed in their registration? Many times even the registered horses in the hunter world don't have papers with them. I would like to think that as more people are actually breeding for the hunter ring specifically that this will change, but I'm not holding my breath.



  16. #16
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    I started in breed shows and can talk pedigree and influence in several. Very familiar with TB too, I like to go to the track. While it's fun to see famous parents in my own horse's pedigree it's not a deciding factor when buying.

    A big issue with us versus the breed shows is we really don't have the young horses. Most of us don't buy youngsters and can guage talent with actual results without having to use who the parents are to guess if it will or will not be able to do what we want. If it can do it and suits us, what matter the parents?

    Hate to say it but have seen way too many hopes dashed when pricey and well bred babies flunked out when tried for the intended purpose. Seen perfectly conformed animals with a pedigree that screams Hunter never bend a joint over a fence while others bred specifically for something else break in half with knees to eyeballs.
    Heard too many sales spiels about the grandsire's half sister's dam being short listed for the such and so team.

    So I will look at who the sire is and what kind of horse the dam is AFTER I see it go...and maybe AFTER I buy it.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2000
    Location
    WA. The Evergreen State Where The Horses Are Forever Green
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    17,256

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    Back in the 70's around here there were several TB Stallions that consistently sired wonderful Hunters and Jumpers. At that time, trainers did look for these bloodlines when they came to the track to buy horses or when they bred mares they had. Names like Doctrine, Pan Man, Hitter and Kaneoehe Bay.
    Who sired some Olympic horses, Sundancer, Old English, Man A'live, Diamond Jim. (off the top of my head, I know there were dozens more).
    Coming back into it since then, I don't see it as much, if at all.
    Most breeding is aimed at WB lines and not TB.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 1, 2002
    Posts
    385

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    Well, from what I can see, it really doesn't matter what the horse is bred like. For hunters and jumpers, performance is everything.

    There are just so few people who buy horses as babies. The vast majority of the hunter sales business is for MADE horses.

    A lot of professionals are on the road too much and just don't have the time to bring along a baby. Most of the money in the hunter industry is also for juniors. Mom and Dad aren't going to spend money for a horse their kid can't ride for another year or two. They can take a little green (say a pregreen horse to eventually do the juniors) but aren't for the most part buying something for their kid that is getting ready for the baby greens.

    So, breeding is just for that, the breeders. If you see a combination that works well, and makes nice performance horses, continue to breed that.

    We as the consumer don't care if it is out of so and so and by big name stallion. If it doesn't perform, there won't be a market for it.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 2000
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    school
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think it's absolutely rediculous that H/J riders (actually it's more the hunters than the jumpers) riders don't even want to learn and be educated. Why should anyone ever want to limit their knowledge <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Same way it might be rediculous for a breeder to not consider that we actually do know, and are knowledgable (and how much is there to know.. hunter breeder is comparitively limited) yet we chose to base our decisions on what matters to us in the finite versus the intangible?



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2003
    Location
    Texas
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    I am not only asking from a hunter standpoint but used the term H/J b/c I was referring to both hunters and jumpers.
    Kona Wind Farms
    www.konawindfarms.com



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