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  1. #1
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    Default Tildren for Ringbone?

    Has anyone had any luck using Tildren to treat ringbone in a performance horse?

    Thanks!
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  2. #2
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    I used it for a hock injury and was pleased with the results.

    Call my vet's office. According to my vet, they've had positive results.
    Southern Equine Service
    Dr. Jamie Carter
    803-644-1544
    I'm sure they wouldn't mind forwarding info to your vet.
    You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts!



  3. #3
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    High or low ringbone? In or outside the joint? My guy had high, intra-articular ringbone and my top notch vet said he didn't think tildren was worth trying. We did irap and shockwave instead.
    -Grace



  4. #4
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    It is high and low, in both fronts. I honestly don't know if it is outside or in the joint. We have been able to keep him totally sound doing upper level work with injections in the higher joint (the lower ringbone doesnt seem to bother him) for aprox. 4 month periods. I know this isn't going to last forever though and my vet thought Tildren might help?

    I am also thinking about alcohol arthrodesis if the joint injections stop working and the Tildren isn't helpful.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  5. #5
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    Donella

    You might want to consider IRAP. If you want to know more about Tildren, a good person to talk to is RAyers. He usually posts in the eventing forum. He's written about Tildren before.

    Anyway, I took one of my horses to Kent Allen in July. We did IRAP, and the results were remarkable. His clinic will review radiographs and consult if you are interested in different options.

    ETA He is one of the top lameness vets in the US, and his clinic is chocked full of UL event horses, UL dressage horses, field hunters, you name it.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  6. #6
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    I did Tildren for high ring bone AND pentosan IM for a 10yr old warmblood jumper. He had it in the left hind. Pentosan was 1 5ml IM injection weekly for 4 weeks and then slowly moved it out to monthly.

    I turned him into a fancy dressage horse and he flexed almost sound on that joint 6mos later in the ppe when I sold him.

    You might want to start with the Pentosan.

    I also called Dr. Carter (mentioned above) and Virginia Equine Imaging on consults on the xrays.

    good luck!
    www.TackMeUp.com
    'What's in your trunk?'
    Free tools for Trainers and Riders



  7. #7
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    Thank you guys,

    It is outside of the joints at this point in time. We did the Tildren IV today, so we will see how it goes, though my understanding is that it takes a few weeks to take noticable effect.

    As for the IRAP, my vet had mentioned that as an option. Perhaps I should try that as well?? He was going to speak to another vet about this so maybe I will pass on that info. Thanks!

    Pentosan is similiar to Adequan is it not? I have used Pentosan in my dog for arthritis, but never in a horse. He currently gets Adequan every ten days and Hyonate twice a month.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  8. #8
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    The efficacy of tildren is the subject of some debate so you would be well served to do some research. It has shown some promise when used to treat DJD of the hock but even then its efficacy is rather short lived and requires further treatment. Its usefulness in the treatment of front limb ringbone is sketchy and anecdotal at best.
    I am also thinking about alcohol arthrodesis if the joint injections stop working and the Tildren isn't helpful.
    Fusing the PIPJ may have some value but fusing the DIPJ is propably going to result in a horse that is suitable as a pasture puff.

    If you have not already done so, it would be a good idea to figure out what has caused bi-lateral high and low ringbone in your horse and then address those causes.



  9. #9
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    I have done as much research as is possible, spoken to a number of vets, online ect. From my findings, it has shown to be quite effective in managing osteoarthritis and navicular ect. Can you point me to studies where it is considered to be sketchy and anecdotal in the management or ringbone?

    My horse has ringbone likely because he is older, has worked hard and has upright pasterns, a history of foot problems (from what I have found out following purchasing him) and has significant toeing in of his front feet. He now goes in bar shoes that allow for easier breakover and greater heel support.

    The damage has already been done and so it is a matter of managing the symptoms so that he stays sound in his athletic endevours. When he can no longer be kept sound enough with this level of maintenance to pass an FEI jog, then I will think about arthrodesis (yes, I know you cant fuse coffin joint) or retirement to pasture.

    I guess I am just looking at Tildren as another possible tool to give us more time. If it works, awesome! If not, no harm done...
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    Can you point me to studies where it is considered to be sketchy and anecdotal in the management or ringbone?
    Not ringbone per se, ratheer treatment in general.
    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...299&A=2870&S=0
    http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2010/07...-for-bone.html (note that improvements were seen in 60% of the horses but they still remained lame and that the study was paid for by the manufacturer)

    http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/...C500099774.pdf (scroll down to page 3)

    http://www.j-evs.com/article/S0737-0...068-3/abstract
    The damage has already been done and so it is a matter of managing the symptoms so that he stays sound in his athletic endevours.
    Have you considered that it is those very athletic endeavors in combination with his conformation and quite possibly trimming and shoeing protocols that have created the problem in the first place and that continuing said athletic endeavors will only exacerbate and hasten further degradation?
    I guess I am just looking at Tildren as another possible tool to give us more time.
    Perhaps a new job description would be in order?
    Last edited by Rick Burten; Aug. 16, 2011 at 03:51 PM.



  11. #11
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    Wow, Rick that seems a bit harsh. As an owner of an FEI horse with just recently diagnosed ringbone, I sympathize with Donella. I was considering backing off with the upper level work, but my vet has encouraged me to keep him going. We did three rounds of shockwave plus pentosan. We now just have about ten steps slightly uneven on our warmup trot, and sometimes a slight bobble in the shoulder in. I did first try six months of just turnout and that actually seemed to make him worse as he got stiff all over and as he traveled more and more on the front end. I do find keeping his hind end in top shape certainly helps the front end. He was never off in passage, piaffe, nor half passes. Just the one shoulder in and certain corners at a regular trot.
    My vet did not love Tildren since he'd like to see more research done on the negative long term side effects. I think if it flairs up again, we might look into IRAP. Good luck and let us know your results!



  12. #12
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    I see, so because a therapy is not 100 percent effective in all cases it should not be used? Sorry, I don't really follow that thinking. The bottom line is that my vet has had good success with it and recommended trying it. I know a number of people who have had good results and some that haven't. I came here to discuss this issue with others who have had the same issues/experiences.

    Have you considered that it is those very athletic endeavors in combination with his conformation and qujite possibly trimming and shoeing protocols that have created the problem in the first place and that continuing said athletic endeavors will only exacerbate and hasten further degredation?

    As I explained previously, I am aware as to why the problem started (unfortunatly I did not own him for most of his life so his care was out of my control) and I am also aware that it is a degenerative condition. However, he is a super nice horse that can do most of the GP with ease. He loves to work and I believe that I am being fair to him by making sure he remains sound when I ride him. I have spoken to numerous vets on this issue (because of course at first I thought I should back way off or think of retiring him) and all of them feel that it is perfectly fine to keep him in this kind of work so long as he is able to be kept sound. Since you seem to imply that I am not putting the well being of my horse first I will tell you that I have been assured that riding my horse at this level while he is sound is not going to impede on his ability to retire comfortably to the pasture when need be. If he can't stay sound for that level of work, then as I said, he will live out his days on my farm very comfortably. He is very, very special to me and I owe him alot.

    Candico, thank you for your input, I really appreciate it. Good to know your guy is doing so well. I am definately going to be speaking to my vet about the IRAP. I will keep you posted as to the results of the Tildren.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by candico View Post
    Wow, Rick that seems a bit harsh.
    Reality often is.
    As an owner of an FEI horse with just recently diagnosed ringbone, I sympathize with Donella. I was considering backing off with the upper level work, but my vet has encouraged me to keep him going.
    Of course he did. He's got a mortgage and other bills to pay too........
    We did three rounds of shockwave plus pentosan.
    I rest my case.....
    We now just have about ten steps slightly uneven on our warmup trot, and sometimes a slight bobble in the shoulder in.
    Arthritis is like that sometimes.......
    I think if it flairs up again......
    IME, its not a question of 'if', rather, 'when'.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    I see, so because a therapy is not 100 percent effective in all cases it should not be used? Sorry, I don't really follow that thinking.
    I never said that. Besides, its your money, so you get to choose how to spend it.
    The bottom line is that my vet has had good success with it and recommended trying it. I know a number of people who have had good results and some that haven't. I came here to discuss this issue with others who have had the same issues/experiences.
    So? How have I not conformed to that parameter?
    As I explained previously, I am aware as to why the problem started and I am also aware that it is a degenerative condition.
    Yet you would continue to inflict on the horse, those conditions that brought about the problem. Too bad the horse doesn't get a vote.
    However, he is a super nice horse that can do most of the GP with ease.
    What about that which he can't do with ease?
    He loves to work and I believe that I am being fair to him by making sure he remains sound when I ride him.
    Anthropomorphic twaddle. I too take pain killers and other stuff so I can work. Difference is, that's my choice, not that of someone else. And, I, not someone else, get to choose the level of work in which to engage.
    I have spoken to numerous vets on this issue (because of course at first I thought I should back way off or think of retiring him) and all of them feel that it is perfectly fine to keep him in this kind of work so long as he is able to be kept sound.
    Self-serving spucatum tauri.
    Since you seem to imply that I am not putting the well being of my horse first I will tell you that I have been assured that riding my horse at this level while he is sound is not going to impede on his ability to retire comfortably to the pasture when need be.
    ROTFLMAO!! Were those 'experts' looking in their crystal ball when then made that prognostication? Did they perhaps require you to check your use of critical thinking at the door to their emporium?
    If he can't stay sound for that level of work, then as I said, he will live out his days on my farm very comfortably.
    How nice. Whatcha' gonna do to get/keep him comfortable when the DJD is intolerable and/or his body can no longer effectively compensate in other ways?
    He is very, very special to me and I owe him alot.
    But not so much that you won't stop doing the things that created problem in the first place. Now that is indeed, love.......



  15. #15
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    Geez, Rick, why doesn't she just shoot the horse. Would that make you feel even more smugly superior? How about dumping the horse at auction? Good choice, ya think? Or heck, just take it right to the slaughterhouse. After all, she's in Canada so it's right around the corner.

    You haven't seen the images, you don't know what sort of trim it has, and you have no idea how the owner, vet and farrier intend to manage this horse.

    The owner isn't some starry eyed novice cooing over her fur child. The horse is a performance horse. Horses age. Horses develop arthritis. Even well managed horses with knowledgeable, competent owners. Ringbone isn't a death sentence. There are modern therapies which not only extend the useful life of the horse, but make the horse comfortable and sound in work.

    You know, you and the other farriers that visit this BB would probably not get such a chilly reception if you didn't act like asshats all the time. I don't recall ONE hoof thread, in all the years on this BB, that didn't turn into a trainwreck because of farriers and their bluster.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Geez, Rick, why doesn't she just shoot the horse.
    I've no idea. Why not ask her?
    Would that make you feel even more smugly superior?
    If you're looking for a nomination for the Miss Logical Fallacy 2012 contest, you've come to the right place.
    How about dumping the horse at auction? Good choice, ya think? Or heck, just take it right to the slaughterhouse. After all, she's in Canada so it's right around the corner.
    Your suggestions, not mine.
    You haven't seen the images, you don't know what sort of trim it has, and you have no idea how the owner, vet and farrier intend to manage this horse.
    What we do have, is the owner's words on the subject along with at least her version of what the vet(s) said.
    The owner isn't some starry eyed novice cooing over her fur child.
    You know this because? Regardless, like so many, she appears intent on making her needs/wants/desires paramount.
    The horse is a performance horse. Horses age. Horses develop arthritis. Even well managed horses with knowledgeable, competent owners. Ringbone isn't a death sentence. There are modern therapies which not only extend the useful life of the horse, but make the horse comfortable and sound in work.
    All very true. But the horse depends on its human connection(s) to make , dare I say it, 'sound' decisions regarding its job description/work load, on its behalf.
    You know, you and the other farriers that visit this BB would probably not get such a chilly reception if you didn't act like asshats all the time.
    Or perhaps, our reception might be different if we weren't dealing, for the most part with horse owners who on the best day of their lives couldn't make a pimple on a horseman's butt. If that statement causes the cheese to be a bit binding, you have but to look in the mirror and ask yourself why.
    I don't recall ONE hoof thread, in all the years on this BB, that didn't turn into a trainwreck because of farriers and their bluster.
    ROTFLMAO! From my POV, the train wrecks because of Fluff Bunnies suffering from TSS and other deficiencies including an inability to read for content in context with comprehension and a lack of ability to engage in the acts of critical thinking and analysis. YMMV.



  17. #17
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    I know this because I know who she is - she's been a member of this BB for years. A real member. Not someone who does drive by's and takes pot shots, trying to stir up the pot.

    You might actually educate some people if you weren't so determined to ridicule everyone. As it is - no hoof thread can ever be productive because the second the farriers start posting - it turns into a trainwreck. If your intent is to share your knowledge - you've failed.

    Not every horse owner is a clueless idiot. Especially on this BB. If you are surrounded by clueless idiots in your practice, I suggest you surround yourself with better quality people.

    The truth is - she's an owner who is obviously going above and beyond to keep her horse sound - and HAS mentioned retirement or less strenuous work as possibilities for the future. OR did you miss where she wrote that?

    That's pretty much what each owner faces - a time when, for whatever reason - their horse cannot continue in its work. Age, illness, infirmity. But until that time - it's perfectly reasonable to consider new or different treatments - even if the goal is to make the horse pasture sound in retirement. Heck - that horse is lucky. How many get sent down the road when they are no longer serviceable...

    I'm always eager to learn, Rick - but I'll tell you plain. You and the other farriers do a great disservice to your profession when you do these pithy drive by's. It's a shame because there are people out there who would love to learn more about hoof care.

    Oh - and for the record. I'm not one of the Fluff Bunnies. Unless you count shooting one and cooking it for dinner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    You know this because? Regardless, like so many, she appears intent on making her needs/wants/desires paramount.

    .
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    I know this because I know who she is - she's been a member of this BB for years. A real member. Not someone who does drive by's and takes pot shots, trying to stir up the pot.
    Dang, there's that reading for content in context monster rearing its ugly head again.
    You might actually educate some people if you weren't so determined to ridicule everyone.
    Ok, OK, I'll nominate you. Stop with the logical fallacies already.
    As it is - no hoof thread can ever be productive because the second the farriers start posting - it turns into a trainwreck.
    Mushroom fertilizer.
    If your intent is to share your knowledge - you've failed.
    I'll learn to live with the ignominy
    Not every horse owner is a clueless idiot.
    Who ever said that all are?
    Especially on this BB.
    Well, that's one POV.
    If you are surrounded by clueless idiots in your practice, I suggest you surround yourself with better quality people.
    Ok, already. I nominated you, so now I promise to vote for you.
    The truth is - she's an owner who is obviously going above and beyond to keep her horse sound - and HAS mentioned retirement or less strenuous work as possibilities for the future.
    Unfortunately, horses live in the 'here and now'.......
    That's pretty much what each owner faces - a time when, for whatever reason - their horse cannot continue in its work. Age, illness, infirmity. But until that time - it's perfectly reasonable to consider new or different treatments - even if the goal is to make the horse pasture sound in retirement.
    Pasture sound has such a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Unfortunately, the reality is that 'pasture sound' really means unsound and unsound usually means uncomfortable, hurting, and the like.
    Heck - that horse is lucky. How many get sent down the road when they are no longer serviceable...
    Far to many. But economic reality is economic reality.
    I'm always eager to learn, Rick - but I'll tell you plain. You and the other farriers do a great disservice to your profession when you do these pithy drive by's.
    Horror of horrors. Demi-gods with feet of clay.......
    It's a shame because there are people out there who would love to learn more about hoof care.
    And, demonstrably, many of them do.
    Oh - and for the record. I'm not one of the Fluff Bunnies. Unless you count shooting one and cooking it for dinner.
    I believe it was the Bard who first penned "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." And things haven't changed much since his day.



  19. #19
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    Hey Rick Burten,

    I am not interested in your barefoot bologne, nor your crass, uneducated opinions. You can carry on if you like but don't direct them at me.

    Thank you to everyone else for their thoughtful advice/comments.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  20. #20
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    Good luck, Donella. Hope you find the right solution for your horse.

    Sorry to see yet another hoof related thread ruined.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



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