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  1. #41
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    Kaluna i respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. Either way...best of luck to the OP! If I were in the market for a second dressage horse I'd snatch him up...I'm such a sucker for a fancy chestnut . Best of luck and I think your horse is just dreamy



  2. #42
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    Oct. 7, 2010
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    OK, another few things from what I think I've learned from Dr Deb Bennett:
    1)there is no way in these photos to judge whether the horse is camped out behind/sickle hocked because this must be evaluated with the cannon bone vertical, or perpendicular to the ground. In no standing photo, here, is the cannon bone perpendicular. Looks to me like the horse could be a bit camped out...but can't tell for sure without his rear cannon vertical. Once the rear cannon is vertical, drop a line from the point of buttock downward- the back of the cannon should be plumb with this line.

    2)This horse, as per Dr Deb's analysis, is VERY uphill- she judges not from top of croup to top of withers, but from 'core of loins' (where the spine joins with the pelvis, you can't see it b/c it is inside the pelvis, but approximately level with the point of hip) to the thickest palpable point of neck vertebrae. Obviously, this measurement will vary with the horse's posture (neck/head up or down) but if you look at how the horse usually carries himself, it will present itself. (If you want to understand this better, look at an Equus magazine...I don't remember the date but it should be about two years ago- Dr Deb has reworked her conformation series for the magazine, and you can subscribe specifically to get those back issues. Her articles are about two years' worth.)

    3)While the horse may be trotting with a leg left way out behind, in EVERY 'trot' photo he is carrying himself with more weight on his rear quarters. He will hit the ground with his diagonal rear leg first. He has his front end elevated.
    4)Going with the elevated front end, is one huge facet of true collection- the BASE of his neck is raised. (A collected horse, as per Dr Deb, has a coiled loin and the base of neck raised.) I love the canter photo, where he is quite balanced taking all of his weight on his right rear leg, with his back and base of neck up. It is no surprise to hear from Shakey that the horse is able to, and likes to canter slowly-this takes a lot of balance-and this horse is naturally able to assume a posture that makes it easy for him.

    I hear such nice things about how smart and fun Saddlebreds are. This one hasn't been funnied up with training to get him to 'break back at the base of his neck', or put in bungie hobbles. If I were in the market for another horse, I'd have a trailer at Shakey's farm tomorrow.

    But I do get how he doesn't look like a WB with the level croup and the lanky look- so he might not be as marketable to those who like to look at photos of shiny warmbloods. So my own critique must be taken with a grain of salt.



  3. #43
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    Feb. 13, 2006
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    1,501

    Default I love...

    I love his shoulder, and the overall harmony I see in this horse. Photos are very hard to judge, even though you offer us a nice sampling. Movement will tell the tail, er, tale!

    How tall do you expect him to get? He's a doll.
    http://behindthebitblog.com
    Dressage, riding, sport horse blog



  4. #44
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    Mar. 17, 2006
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    Two years can be such an awkward age, but this horse looks really good. I like him.



  5. #45
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    http://www.flickr.com/photos/6551023...57627223822719

    Once the rear cannon is vertical, drop a line from the point of buttock downward- the back of the cannon should be plumb with this line.


    Bring those hinds forward a titch and it'll be easy to verify he's a little camped out/sickle hocked. Easy as eatin' lettuce. It's not like conformation judges get to wait until the horse can be measured with a level

    You evaluate what's in front of you, as it's presented to you.

    Shakey can drop him off at my barn, 8 days a week. I bet his mind and overall good build will serve him well: but he's not going to catch the eye of the person looking for 'the' dressage physique'.

    LOL I dare anyone to say they can't spot the weaknesses in this gal's conformation...she's mine so I feel free to post her as a sample of poorly stood up, but hey, she's still goofy behind
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/31281399@N06/5110393749/



  6. #46
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillabeana View Post
    OK, another few things from what I think I've learned from Dr Deb Bennett:
    1)there is no way in these photos to judge whether the horse is camped out behind/sickle hocked because this must be evaluated with the cannon bone vertical, or perpendicular to the ground. In no standing photo, here, is the cannon bone perpendicular. Looks to me like the horse could be a bit camped out...but can't tell for sure without his rear cannon vertical. Once the rear cannon is vertical, drop a line from the point of buttock downward- the back of the cannon should be plumb with this line.
    the books i mentioned earlier are the book form of the articles you are talking about.

    you did not mention that one of the most important factors for a horse is the rear end. and that as per DB this horse, as presented, has a weak hind end on almost every point. but especially the lack of depth and the fact that the LS joint is so far back and not over the hips as it should be for good and correct power ability.

    every point i made are direct points from DBs books as i happen to be reading them right now.

    any serious dressage rider - whether a lower level rider - or an upper level one - will look for a horse built to do the job - no matter what the breed. the hind end is the most important part. uphill does not matter if the horse is too weak behind to carry iut without breaking down.

    there are MANY well conformed animals out there. why pick one that isnt? it just is not fair to the horse. and there is no glory in taking an ill conformed animal and forcing it to do something that it isnt built to do.

    i *still* vote for finding him a home where he will get light use that does not require power usage of the hind end etc.

    question for OP : why will he not work out for you as a show horse?



  7. #47
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    Aug. 11, 2000
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    Thumbs down they're not enough!

    Willingness and attitude will take a horse only so far; imagine an old style "bulldog" Quarterhorse; How would they work as a thre gaited horse or plantation walker?; NOT at ALL! they are not bred in conformation / central nervous system to move in the way necessary; they do NOT have a flat back
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  8. #48
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    Aug. 11, 2000
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    Default a flat back is "tight"

    The "flat back" I am taking about is not the croup; yes, some Hanoverians do have that, but, they are trying to bred it out; The flat back I mean is the reaction of the cns to hold the muscles of the back tight , level, rather than allowing them to round up ,bascule, as part of the circle of muscles along with lowering the hindquarters and elevating the forehand; all of which are sought after in dressage , so, I'm afraid that a rider with goals to do upper level dressage would not find him suitable That does NOT mean that you could not do lower level dressage with him; if, that is what you are doing with him, advertise him that way but, don't expect a BNT/ BNR to be interested
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  9. #49
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    Aug. 11, 2000
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    Thumbs up Susan Harris

    to develop an eye, I highly recommend Susan Harris' books and videos, especially the "visible horse" btw. I am still looking for someone to organize a visible horse/ rider, or Centered Riding clinicc as a fund raiser for me; any ideas? the two people who, had agreed initially have fallen by the wayside ( too much life happening, new baby, possibly marriage, etc.so, I 'm still looking..
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  10. #50
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    Dec. 4, 2005
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    Carol Ames:
    But I thought "lower level" riders need/desire a swinging/lose back.....even at intro the horse needs to allow the energy to flow through the whole body.
    I get tired of so much being reserved for "upper level riders". Dressage at any level requires a certain level of composure, fitness, suppleness....I'm not talking about just wtc but actual connection, reach, and contact (what ever that level requires). A truely gymnastic horse not just a horse going through the test movements.
    The saddlebred is very cute but guarded in his body. and trailing out, croup high. I have a horse with a tendency to a stiff back and its been a pain in the a$$. Seriously. I would think twice before getting a horse with a stiff back and weak croup/hocks. Most horses can get to a halfway decent test but a heck of a lot of work! there are horses of all breeds with nice hock and pelvis placement so its not that you need a WB.



  11. #51
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    Apr. 8, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i *still* vote for finding him a home where he will get light use that does not require power usage of the hind end etc.
    Your typical ASB does require plenty of power usage of the hind end. We want them light in front and driving off that hind end. Think about a five-gaited horse (and this horse has plenty in his family)- they're absolute powerhouses.

    question for OP : why will he not work out for you as a show horse?
    I prefer saddle seat and he just doesn't have quite enough raw leg-waving talent, not quite enough neck, and not as game as I like. If I keep him, he'll probably be my western pleasure project.



  12. #52
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    Aug. 5, 2007
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    First of all, here is a two year old, an age most horses do not look their best.
    Someone find me a picture of Totilas, Jazz, or Donnerhall at this age -good luck!

    Second, here is a horse with a similar hock:
    most of you will know who the top sire Don Federico is, scroll down...
    http://www.foals.com/thesires.htm

    Third, 3/4 of the pictures do nothing positive for this nice youngster. I'm not talking condition, but there are phases of the stride that make a horse look more appealing to a dressage buyer.
    this for trot:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HHyUhFh8s_...00/bag+web.jpg

    this for canter, both hind hooves grounded:
    http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/News/2009/20...0dressage.aspx

    Never a photo with neck raised and back dropped / croup flattened (two yr olds are noodles!).

    Try to avoid taking pics where the photographer is at the elbow or further to the front, makes hq look decidedly light. Place the photographer behind the girth or as far back as the stifle; the horse at right angles or perhaps slightly stepped away on the front end.

    Think about how you would entice the horse to 'look down' and reach under as he moves, rather than 'look up' and pick them up high; take many shots and have someone who does dressage pick through them.

    This pose is closer to a pic that would attract a dressage person if the left hind was a bit more forward, scroll down to Heir Delivery (no chain over the nose, please, however)
    http://www.mveh.com/stallions.html

    If you ever do a video, think the same way. And emphasize the canter and a reaching, back flexing walk, don't show oodles of trot and little if his back isn't rounding up and flexing with each step behind.

    For a real 'sale presentation' he would need to pack on some muscle on topline and through the HQ and he is young for that; Euro imports are very advanced physically at 3 yrs old while Saddlebreds don't outgrow the stringbean stage for another 2 years.


    He may well resemble this in a few years time:
    http://gayladrivingcenter.com/drivin...tured-clients/

    Or this:
    http://www.americansaddlebredsportho...t/?page_id=145

    You have a nice horse who is very young when people are confident looking at foals and mature animals. Few will see how nice without visual proof.
    It is there and catching it is tough with the young ones.

    Great prospect with a will do attitude!
    Hope that gives a few ideas.



  13. #53
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    DBS- Thank you for the photo tips. It definitely helps to know what part of that stride to show. I've been playing with my new camera at horse shows- a top ASB can sure look like a different critter if you catch the stride wrong. Just a hair late can be OK, but just a hair early is blech! I wish I had a fit teenager to run with him in hand in a bridle. Some things I can't change, of course, but I can get views that are more appealing to the target audience. Gotta love digital technology- it doesn't cost anything to take more pictures.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    I like your colt, but I agree that a dressage rider with upper level aspirations would probably pass on him, because, as others have noted, he seems abit light in the hindquarters.

    That being said, "Try" is everything in a horse and that is a very important component.

    As comparison, here is a pic of my 2 yr old WB filly.

    http://pets.webshots.com/photo/20869...04425996Izjkxc

    These pics were taken almost to the day of her 2nd birthday, so that gives you an idea. And she has fairly refined breeding: she is by Rosenthal o/o a Rubino Bellisimo/Batido mare....so she is purpose bred for dressage pretty much all the way.

    But again, if the horse is sound and willing & you have a talented rider (the hardest part) you'd be surprised how far they can go.
    I see long weak pasterns on this horse. Is this normal for a 2 yr. old?



  15. #55
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    First of all, here is a two year old, an age most horses do not look their best.
    Someone find me a picture of Totilas, Jazz, or Donnerhall at this age -good luck!

    Second, here is a horse with a similar hock:
    most of you will know who the top sire Don Federico is, scroll down...
    http://www.foals.com/thesires.htm
    fwiw, my crtique of this horse is based on his bone structure - his angles and palpation points. those are not going to change dramatically as he matures.

    and, i just want to say - i am not trying to be tough on this horse, but Don Fredirico? what do you see that is similar?

    here is a pic of my off breed, non dressage bred Connemara pony at just 2. he is very immature, is bum high, but you can still see the angles of his hind end the ration of bum to rest of body, back length etc and again , my pony is not perfect - he has a short neck and does not (yet) have flash movement - but he has a very strong body/hind end/back/and huge bone (9")

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...00000097655253

    here he is at 1.5

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...00000097655253

    obviously your guy appeals to some.... and i agree better pics would be beneficial.

    why do you think he would make a good dressage prospect and why do you want to market him there as opposed to say western pleasure which is what you might use him for?

    eta: as i mentioned, i am reading the Deb Bennet books lright now and they are very interesting. She says the single most importnat factor for a horse is their hind end: specifically the SI joint placement. she says it needs to be as far *forward* as possible; right on top of the hip bones would be ideal - you notice on my pony it isnt right on top but a little further back; however he does have a very long bone from hip to point of buttocks - on the OPs horse you can see how far back it is placed and how short the bone is between point of hip and point of bum.

    DB also states that the further back the SI joint is teh longer , in general, the lower back will be - and that is the weakest part of the horse.

    it is *really* a fascinating book for anyone who wants to understand more about why horses move as they do , their potential based on their bodies etc.

    also, one thing DB does say is that a good temperament is key for beginner/most lower level riders....



  16. #56
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    I don't think the OP is asking if he's a future FEI prospect; she wants to know if he could be a capable lower level mount so that she can advertise him or start his training as such (shakey, correct me if I'm wrong). IMO, I think that's perfectly reasonable. Should he be capable of doing second level (which the vast majority of people show at or under)? I don't see any reason why not.

    The best thing about horses is that they don't read the book and don't know what they "can't" or "shouldn't" be able to do.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Oct. 2, 2003
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    In addition to attitude, one of the biggest factors in producing an upper level horse is having an upper level trainer and an upper level rider. You can have the most well proportioned horse in the world never amount to anything without the right training. I don't understand why some of you guys seem so harsh. The vast majority of "dressage" horses, never get over 3rd level. He is cute and could make someone a lovely partner.



  18. #58
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    Oct. 20, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    First
    this for canter, both hind hooves grounded:
    http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/News/2009/20...dressage.aspx.
    I just spent a lot of $ for a new pair of glasses. Would someone please tell me that both hind hooves are not grounded.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Ames View Post
    Willingness and attitude will take a horse only so far; imagine an old style "bulldog" Quarterhorse; How would they work as a thre gaited horse or plantation walker?
    That's a very funny image, Carol.



  20. #60
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    OP, he is a very nice boy! Why market him to the dressage crowd? He'd probably be much happier as an eventer. Your boy looks good to me.

    Conrad Schaumacher (sp?) had a video that talked about horses conformation and he was not bothered by a high tailset/flat croup if there were other good features to offset that. And measuring from the point of hip to the rump muscle, your guy has breadth.

    Am I the only one that thinks the Connemara in the pic that was posted ealier looks long backed and earth bound? (I love Connies, I'm not picking on the breed) Given a choice I'd take this ASB over the Connemara.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*



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