[Tom Stovall]

NoOneGuru in gray

It is your profession. If you advocate untrained people trimming chronic laminitic horses that is up to you.

Personally, I don't care if an "untrained operator" rubs the toe off with a washboard as long as turnover is facilitated. Failure to get the toe outa the way on a chronic can be catastrophic, but damn few die from a bad trim.

[NoOneGuru]

NoOneGuru in gray

It is your profession. If you advocate untrained people trimming chronic laminitic horses that is up to you.

Personally, I don't care if an "untrained operator" rubs the toe off with a washboard as long as turnover is facilitated. Failure to get the toe outa the way on a chronic can be catastrophic, but damn few die from a bad trim.

If few die from a bad trim, then maybe she should have waited for the "good" farrier?

I am really not looking to argue, so this is my last post on this thread. You can all argue now!

[Catersun]

*sniff sniff* is that the smell of a Troll???????

amastrike, I like how you think cause as I finally had time to get back here and read the anwser to my question I pondered the same thing and was happy to see you had already asked and been anwsered.

So to further the motor oil questions, could you apply the motor oil just the the area you wished to soften without compromsing the rest of the hoof to softness?

my thoughts on that hoof trimmer is that it looks like a spiffy version of those silly electirc purffect nail files for house pets you see on infomercials. Since My hands just ache thinking about trimming, I can totally see how that would be a life saver. er. hand saver.

[Katy Watts]

and a non-veterinarian to manage the needs of someone else's horse with chronic laminitis-

You'll just hate this, and I know you won't believe it, and it will just sound arrogant and backfire, but when the best local horse vet diagnoses metabolic laminitis, he tells his clients, 'call Katy Watts'. No other instructions. He knows nothing about it, and I have a file drawer of all the current scientific papers, which I read, highlight and make notations on. He says he is amazed at what I have accomplished with my own ponies, and some of his clients as well. I know its more responsibility than I should accept, but he will write any RX I suggest, as well as the most cost effective pharmacy to get it at. He suggested I speak the CO Vet Med Assoc. CEC conference, which I did, along with several other state Vet Med Assoc. Here is the list of my presentations. The last lecture at Cornell got canceled.

http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/listallclinics.pdf

So you see, I've attended a LOT of conferences devoted to laminitis and EMS, and the networking and collaboration with academics gives me access to full text journal articles. plus when I visit a university I often spend 8 hours in the library downloading papers which I pile on my kitchen table and read when I eat.

Originally it was just diet stuff when I spoke at vet CEC conferences, but when I started putting in some new medical stuff from recent EMS and laminitis conferences, vets were taking notes especially in the sections regarding the newest drugs and dosages. Of course I back it all up with citations so they can double check me. Rural vets do not have time to read up on endocrinology that may only matter to a few of their clients. I was asked to lecture on recognition,diagnosis and management of PPID/EMS by a group of veterinarians around Pueblo CO at the request of a highly regarded vet who also attended my horses. It was very well received and they said they learned a lot. I got a free dinner. I have been presenting that in my all day clinic setting, and veterinarians that attend never have any problems with the content of my lectures. I really can talk endocrinology with academics over lunch and fit right in.

While I know it seems very odd for a lay person to teach vets medical stuff, I am glad that all this reading and library time learning how to care for my own ponies is getting spread around to people that can put it to best use. I know this all sounds pretentious, but its just how it is. I'm just one of those folks with good reading comprehension and a knack for remembering stuff.

Yes, the world is a strange place. Have a glass of wine.

[amastrike]

It is your profession. If you advocate untrained people trimming chronic laminitic horses that is up to you.

In some ways, that chronic laminitic horse is a bit easier to trim than a "normal" horse. The foundered hoof is so out of whack it's easy to see where it needs to change, whereas a healthy foot needs very subtle work. It's a bit like a total non-horseperson watching a little kid kick a horse to trot and then watch a grand prix dressage rider. In the first case, it's obvious what was done. In the second, it isn't (or shouldn't be). I've personally trimmed a chronic laminitic/founder pony. Only was able to do her once, but what a difference that one inexpert trim made. The moment I put the first foot down, she stood square on it and lifted up the opposite hoof and held it up until I moved over to take it. It was easy because she had so much foot that needed to come off and it was very clear how much could be taken off safely.

NoOneGuru, I think you're misunderstanding what a "chronic laminitic horse" is. Not all laminitic horses have ridiculously bad feet with 4 inch heels and crazy stretched out toes with coffin bones penetrating the sole. Yeah, *that* is something that a novice should step away from. Katy's horse is obviously not that bad.

[Patty Stiller]

It is your profession. If you advocate untrained people trimming chronic laminitic horses that is up to you.

I thought you were done posting about this....... you are a little like a cold sore, you just keep coming back.

[Tom Bloomer]

. . .
So when all of you come pick up your new plans, PM me for a tour of Savannah.

We do the Savannah waterfront bar hopping tour on a regular basis.
If you give tours, you might recognize this guy;

http://blackburnforge.com/images/47 034.jpg

[cloudyandcallie]

The Boar's Head used to let us drink when we were underage.

(We own a little building down there too. Not the one the Boar's Head is in though.) (And I used to have a relative who was the original "Doc's" of Doc's Bar at Tybee, where we also drank underage.)

I cannot believe that someone on this thread has a farrier w/o a Gulfstream. She should be paying her farrier more $ so he can afford one. The new ones are really nice. A little "pricey" but nice.

oops, and make that "pick up your new planes" plans for planes. No more Beck's while posting here.

[Auventera Two]

A few of the chronic founders I trim live in dry lots full of crushed limestone and sand so even when it rains, the paddocks drain off quickly and almost no moisture is retained to soak into the hooves. In the heat of summer, I have their owners put them in a stall with some damp/wet shavings for an hour or so before I'm due out to trim.

A couple of owners have the Rx easycare boots and they just put the boots on and pour some water inside the boots. When I get there, I take off the boots and trim, and it's about 10,000 times easier than trimming a hard, dehydrated foot!

One of my own mares has feet like concrete and I usually stick some wet hoof boots on her for an hour or two before I trim her. It works perfectly.

Another great option is the pre-formed patties of Hawthornes hoof packing applied to the foot the night before and left in place until I get there to trim.

I have tried many types of rasps but I keep coming back to Save Edge and Belotta Razor for hard and dry. Heller Legend (white tang) works best for me on wet soft feet.

But Katy, I thought Gene Ovenick was your farrier?

[grayarabpony]

Why use water when there's so much used motor oil lying around??

[Tom Bloomer]

Why use water when there's so much used motor oil lying around??

I agree totally. Water vapor is by far the worst greenhouse gas. I think hydrocarbons are less of a contributor to global warming than water.

[coloredcowhorse]

Holy crap! That's expensive, Rick! But, OTOH ... if it pays for itself over the delayed retirement ... ??? Hmmmmmmmmm.

No more expensive than the GE nippers at Big R in Winnemucca, Nv.....just under $300 for them.

[Tom Bloomer]

It is your profession. If you advocate untrained people trimming chronic laminitic horses that is up to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYa0jpGFUeY

[LarkspurCO]

Good luck with the pony, Katy.

This is for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM_nCFugdkw

[Falconfree]

While I know it seems very odd for a lay person to teach vets medical stuff, I am glad that all this reading and library time learning how to care for my own ponies is getting spread around to people that can put it to best use. I know this all sounds pretentious, but its just how it is. I'm just one of those folks with good reading comprehension and a knack for remembering stuff.

Yes, the world is a strange place. Have a glass of wine.

So you learned all of this to understand/care for your own laminitic horse/s? That's awesome. Thumbs up to you.

To the other experts in the thread, thanks for an informative read. As someone whose never had to deal with founder myself, it's an interesting thread!

[HorsesinHaiti]

I've thought of taking Patty's trim course just as insurance against losing the one farrier I trust, and I don't even live in a rural area.

I just took it and the class is TOTALLY worth the cost.

[Patty Stiller]

Well THANK YOU. You were a great student and a pleasure to be around.

[Katy Watts]

Thought perhaps I should follow through for those who may have worried about this ponies’ feet. Good tools make a HUGE difference on the ease of trimming. Especially after an hour at grass the morning after I irrigate. After our first session, I took pictures and sent to Tom Bloomer and Patty Stiller. Tom said “not bad work there’. Patty said “looking good so far’ and gave me some pointers on how to finish. I did that. Found something in the scrap iron pile that works pretty good for a hoof stand. Then my farrier looked and he said ‘pretty good job’. He pointed out that the bars were not curved the same, due to the previously run forward heels and laid over bars, but said if I will just do the same trim a couple more times they will straighten out and she should have pretty good looking feet. The white line is tight, showing that the limited pasture access has been successful in preventing laminitis from reoccurring. She is moving well at trot and canter. The bruise on the top of my foot where she stomped on it is healing.
I called her previous owner. She is only about 16 YO, Welsh Cob section C, flunked out of professional training as a children’s hunter for a bad attitude and unpredictable behavior. Been a pasture pet ever since. Since I’ve worked with her more, I agree she is a brat. And I’ve owned alpha pony mares for over 20 years. Has gotten by all her life on the luck of finding folks with extra grass and a sucker for her cuteness. But my mare likes her, and she doesn’t eat or poop much, so she can hang out here. I’ll see to her basic care while she is here, but I’m not going to mess with her any more than I have to. I have her on Safergrass Crestbuster TM, and her neck is way softer after 2 weeks

I am not advocating learning how to trim on previously laminitic ponies if there are competent people available. But I have a history of successful self education, am more observant than most people, and I have had many opportunities to watch some of the best farriers in the business.
Thanks again to Tom and Patty for the tools, their faith in me and their help and expertise.
Patty I sent baby spinach and little taters with Isaac.

[CosMonster]

Glad to hear it went well. I bet that pony is happy, too!

[Patty Stiller]

Patty I sent baby spinach and little taters with Isaac.

YUMMY, thanks! I will enjoy them.