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  1. #1
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    Default Jingles & Founder question - Update 7/23

    My 11 yr old TB has developed founder in his LF as a result of the abcess from hell on his RF. Vet says the degree of rotation is 2 millimeters. He does say it's mild, but won't say he will recover, says we have to wait and see. I know a bit about founder treatment, but nothing about how severe certain degrees of rotation are. Anyone care to enlighten me, and please share any positive stories about your ponies. TIA
    Last edited by chism; Jul. 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM. Reason: update
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  2. #2
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    Apr. 25, 2005
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    I know a bit about founder too and I hope your horse feels better soon.

    In December, 2007 my 27 year old horse catastrophically foundered because of Cushing's. His was a sinker founder. He spent from January to August, 2008 in an equine hospital. It took a lot of effort on everyone's part including Billy's to save his life. He never gave up so how could I give up on him? Today he is 30 years old and doing well. He does go to the hospital once a month for check ups to see the doctor and farrier. I take care of him myself at home.

    This is a little of what I have learned. There is life after founder and a good quality life too. I also think horses could live a lot longer if their people let them.



  3. #3
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    2 millimeters? Are you sure about that? I'm not even sure that qualifies as "founder", and even if it did, it would be among the most mild ever

    Besides, mm is generally not a measure of founder. Degrees is. Do you mean it's a rotation of 2*? If so, yes, that's quite mild, and many MANY horses recover quite nicely from that.

    How bad was the abscess, and for how long, that he foundered from it ?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  4. #4
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    My 18 year old mare foundered a few years ago due to cushings and IR. It was in both feet and rotation was 6-7 degrees, with some sinking. She is retired but is pasture sound and happy. For your horse, 2 degrees in only one hoof I would feel very optimistic about. Soft Ride boots were a life saver for her, and I have heard that the supplement LaminaSaver can also help the recovery process. Good luck with your horse....with time, TLC, and proper shoeing/trimming he should hopefully be back in action.

    http://www.softrideboots.com/default.asp

    http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_reviews_...b-428fdad8cdab



  5. #5
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    Default JB - since you asked... here's the missive. ;)

    Horse has been off/on lame in RF for about a month. We have had challenging weather here in NE, spells with 4-5 days of rain, then hot, hot,hot, then repeating pattern. Horse lives out 24/7 and has not had an abcess for several years, have had multiple abcesses with multiple horses who have never abcessed before, it's been very frustrating. Soaking/wrapping for the abcess has produced several foul smelling eruptions from heel, he would do better for a few days, then start looking off again. Last week I was away for three days due to a family member hospitalization, when I came back on Thurs horse was quite off, started doing the soak/wrap thing again, wrapping the LF for support..by Sunday he was non weight bearing on RF, vet lanced an extremely large, foul sub solar abcess through the heel on Monday. Horse was also off on LF, but vet felt it was due to the stress of being the supporting limb. He stayed on stall rest til Saturday, when he seemed much better so I let him out for about two hours on a dry lot. He came in significantly lame on LF, was in contact with vet over weekend, in the meantime treated as founder...heavy bedding, wrapped with frog support, soaked hay, no grain. Vet saw him today, xrayed & definitely said " founder, rotation and 2 millimeters". He does not present like a classic founder case, no heat in front legs, has a pulse, but not super strong. A small part of me feels like the "founder" thing may be a red herring, (wonder if there's another nasty abcess brewing in LF) but I'm not a vet..so I'm going with what he tells me. Treatment protocol is foam pads, equioxx, bute and time, vet will come out to recheck in two days.
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  6. #6
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    I dont think I would lose a minutes sleep over that. 2mm! Sinking a little maybe? But even still... Yawn. Really. Just get the OTHER foot fixed up.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  7. #7
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    Maybe the two milimeters is sole thickness instead of degree of rotation? Hard to tell from the write-up. I have an IR mare who foundered several times. Since I lost my very first horse to founder, I made sure the mare was treated very aggressively both times. I also use a farrier who is an expert at founder. Yes, it seems your horse's case is a slight one, but keep on top of it nonetheless. My mare is totally sound and happy but I manage her closely and watch her like a hawk.



  8. #8
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    I would think 2mm of sole thickness would have the horse in agony and the OP and vet being able to see the outline of the coffin bone
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I would think 2mm of sole thickness would have the horse in agony and the OP and vet being able to see the outline of the coffin bone
    Yes but perhaps it was a loss of 2 on 20.... Being optimistic

    Altho I did recently see 2mm and dead lame does not even begin to describe it
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  10. #10
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    I had one with 3 mm of sole. Dead lame. Thank you ex-ex farrier. (Ex-farrier contributed quite a bit to the disaster too at least she only had one shot at him). Dead lame does not begin to describe it. The looks on the vet and techs who shot the x-rays...horrified. Now mind you, he was only 1/5 lame when we got to the clinic. Twelve hours of magic cushion did wonders overnight and he's amazingly stoic.

    So, OP is it 2mm of sole left or 2 degrees of rotation?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  11. #11
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    Good question, but it's hard for me to believe he meant 2mm of sole depth. He has beautiful, barefoot feet, and vet classified the founder as mild, so would a mild rotation create only 2mm of sole depth? Vet will be back first thing Thursday morning and I can get clarification, but I'm certain he said 2 millimeters rotation.
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chism View Post
    Good question, but it's hard for me to believe he meant 2mm of sole depth.
    I am nearly positive he could not, did not mean 2mm sole depth The only thing I can think of if 2mm really came out of his mouth was a loss of 2mm of sole depth, but that would be predicated on having previous xrays to compare to

    He has beautiful, barefoot feet, and vet classified the founder as mild, so would a mild rotation create only 2mm of sole depth?
    Not unless there was maybe only 4mm sole depth to begin with

    Vet will be back first thing Thursday morning and I can get clarification, but I'm certain he said 2 millimeters rotation.
    rotation is not measured in millimeters or centimeters or anything like that. It's measured in degrees, which is why we're all confused.

    A millimeter or centimeter measurement could be used to denote the amount of sinking, if there's any, as (perhaps) judged by the vertical distance between the coronet band and the top of P3. Even then, that would be minor.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  13. #13
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    Pardon my ignorance, but is sinking different than rotation? If so...better? worse?
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  14. #14
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    Vet came today. Says he looks better, but to me he's just LAME.. Degree of rotation is 2-3 percent, says under 5 is mild, around 10 is pretty bad. So, I'm hopeful. He got new foam shoes with frog support and will be checked again in two weeks.
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  15. #15
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    Percent?

    I hope you dont just think we being bitchy but once again... Terminology that makes no sense in this context.

    Does this vet routinely deal with laminities and founder?
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  16. #16
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    Is English this vet's second language? I'm not being snarky, but I agree with ET again - "percent" is not terminology used to describe rotation (or sinking).

    I'm going to assume at this point it's a 2-3 *degree* rotation, which is indeed mild.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  17. #17
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    The "percent" was a brain cramp, entirely mine...spent a large part of the day working outside in 95 degree heat, then tried to sneak in a quick update while at work. Vet is entirely articulate, intelligent and competent, I'm quite confident in his abilities, mistake was mine. Perhaps english "should" be my second language.


    ps.. I know better than to look for sympathy on COTH, but I must say...all that's been on my mind lately is whether or not I'm going to have to put him down, and how on earth I'm going to keep my husband from flipping his lid completely over yet another vet bill (I have six horses), three of which are far more acquainted with the vet than I'd like. It's been a rough summer. I'm not exactly myself.
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  18. #18
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    recently vetted a pony who was just a little off at the trot, one way only on the turns, and turned out he had a 7-8 degree rotation, was probably never going to be fully sound. So yours at 2-3 is pretty darn mild I think, thank your lucky stars.



  19. #19
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    LOL, understandable in this heat!!

    It's not that you can't look for sympathy here It's that we were trying to ease your mind about "2mm rotation"
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  20. #20
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    Sympathy might not have been most apropos, perhaps I should have said

    Coth doesn't suffer fools gladly & most of the time I do a better job not looking like one.

    There I go, struggling with English again. lol

    I thought about the millimeter thing, and when the vet said it, he had taken out something to measure it on the radiograph, and shared his findings with the farrier. maybe I wasn't supposed to pay attention to that?

    Mayaty - THanks for sharing that. I know that founder is painful, this is supposedly mild, but he is SO off it's painful to watch. I guess he's a pain lightweight? It's such an effort for him to move, he takes these tiny little stabby steps, a full blown case must be simply heartbreaking. I don't think I'd have the heart to let him continue on if that was the case.
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



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