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  1. #1
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    Default Linebreeding--fascinating "what and how" article

    It's from the April AQHA Journal, and it's called "A Century of Breeding Horses" Texas A & M-Kingsville did a pedigree study of King Ranch Quarter Horses all the way back to the beginning. They looked at how interfamily/individual crosses were used over time, derived the inbreeding percentages and came up with results that they believe will allow the program to continue to use the same families and individuals without crossing over into inbreeding depression. The article publishes many of the findings which were based on pedigrees going back as far as 1915. For example,
    On the King Ranch, horses with Thoroughbred blood have been preferred roping horses because of their larger body size and speed, helpful for roping larger calves, cows or bulls on the 825,000 acre ranch. The Thoroughbred influence for King Ranch Quarter Horses born between 1941 and 1942 was determined to be 65.8% Thoroughbred and 34 percent registered Quarter Horse.
    Serious breeders need to read this; it's that important. Where the authors derived their first principles on inbreeding/linebreeding is not given in the article, and that would be equally useful. But they do suggest that the kind of deep pedigree study that was done could and (should be) done by all breeders if traits exist that you'd like to fix in your herds. The study of families and the inbreeding percentage in the foal is crucial.

    It seems to me to be particularly pertinent to Holsteiners.

    If anyone would like to read the whole article, I can scan it in and email it to you as a jpeg. Just send a PM.

    Copies of the full paper can be procured by email. If you'd like it, as I would, PM me and I'll give you the email address.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jul. 11, 2011 at 10:47 AM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2007
    Posts
    31

    Default Linebreediing article

    Would love to see the article. Please email it to me @cmssera@aol.com. Thank you so much for all your input on the forum.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2002
    Location
    Redlands, CA
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    Default

    I'd like to see it too.

    Thank you.

    oakstable@gmail.com



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 21, 2009
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    South Central: Zone 7
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    Default

    I sent you a pm! Thanks!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2005
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    2,605

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    It's from the April AQHA Journal, and it's called "A Century of Breeding Horses" Texas A & M-Kingsville did a pedigree study of King Ranch Quarter Horses all the way back to the beginning. They looked at how interfamily/individual crosses were used over time, derived the inbreeding percentages and came up with results that they believe will allow the program to continue to use the same families and individuals without crossing over into inbreeding depression. The article publishes many of the findings which were based on pedigrees going back as far as 1915. For example,

    Serious breeders need to read this; it's that important. Where the authors derived their first principles on inbreeding/linebreeding is not given in the article, and that would be equally useful. But they do suggest that the kind of deep pedigree study that was done could and (should be) done by all breeders if traits exist that you'd like to fix in your herds. The study of families and the inbreeding percentage in the foal is crucial.

    It seems to me to be particularly pertinent to Holsteiners.

    If anyone would like to read the whole article, I can scan it in and email it to you as a jpeg. Just send a PM.

    Copies of the full paper can be procured by email. If you'd like it, as I would, PM me and I'll give you the email address.

    "Pertinent to Holsteiners" ? Viney , do you wear blinders in regards to Holsteiner breeding ? Do you not see that they are very often the #1 ranked studbook in the world ? Do you not see that their linebreeding / inbreeding philosophies have secured this ranking ? Do you not see that these same philosophies have supplied most of the warmblood world with their jumping gene ?

    When the next ranking comes out , it is very probable that the Holsteiner Stallion Casall will be the #1 ranked horse in the world.

    I think you should leave your perceived pertinence to the breeding director and breeders of Holstein. They know far more than you.



  6. #6
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    Oct. 23, 2004
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    [QUOTE=Bayhawk;5713866I think you should leave your perceived pertinence to the breeding director and breeders of Holstein. They know far more than you.[/QUOTE]

    Take a deep breath :-)
    "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" Richard Bach



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2005
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    Default

    Sometimes I think I have ESP.



  8. #8
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    Sep. 20, 2002
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    Hannover, Germany
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    could you send it to me please ? Alexandra-fischer at t-online.de Thank you !

    Oh and could you state the source so that I could quote it in the correct way to a friend of mine ?
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  9. #9
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    Jan. 15, 2008
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    thank you Viney -

    I did reach out for the full paper
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



    www.dontlookbackfarm.com



  10. #10
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    Oct. 22, 2008
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    Will enjoy reading the paper, thanks.
    andy dot smaga at orange dot fr
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quartz...26013000796803



  11. #11
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    Bayhawk, don't get your knickers in a twist.

    My statement that the research was probably pertinent to Holsteiners was based on the following suppositions:
    1) Holsteiners were a relatively small breeding population in the past--like the King Ranch horses.
    2) They were intensively bred for certain traits--like the King Ranch horses.
    3) They were successful in fixing the traits in their breeding population--like the King Ranch horses.
    4) As far as I'm aware, they do not now or have they in the past suffered from inbreeding depression--like the King Ranch herd.
    5) They are a closely bred group of horses, sharing many of the same ancestors across families--like the King Ranch herd.
    The article shows how a knowledgeable breeder or group of breeders can continue to use the same genetics to the extent that an 8th generation ancestor can be 25% of a current individual who still has an acceptably low coefficient of inbreeding. In light of that, I'm thinking that the breeding gurus in Holstein have been doing this sort of inbreeding control all along to have maintained a healthy population with uniform traits from a very (in the beginning) limited herd of breeders (mostly mares). The King Ranch did it; I'm suggesting that Holstein did it as well and would probably be shown to be comparable in a similar study.

    I'm certainly not trying to tell Holstein how to breed; just drawing parallels between populations. However, one major difference may be that King Ranch did inbreed regularly when it was creating its original herd, to the extent that it bred grandfather to granddaughter, uncle to niece, and so on. But it also culled ruthlessly.

    Still, the techniques and deep pedigree study that was done on the King Ranch herd could benefit any group or individual who is attempting to reproduce desirable traits within a limited breeding population.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Bayhawk, don't get your knickers in a twist.

    My statement that the research was probably pertinent to Holsteiners was based on the following suppositions:
    1) Holsteiners were a relatively small breeding population in the past--like the King Ranch horses.
    2) They were intensively bred for certain traits--like the King Ranch horses.
    3) They were successful in fixing the traits in their breeding population--like the King Ranch horses.
    4) As far as I'm aware, they do not now or have they in the past suffered from inbreeding depression--like the King Ranch herd.
    5) They are a closely bred group of horses, sharing many of the same ancestors across families--like the King Ranch herd.
    The article shows how a knowledgeable breeder or group of breeders can continue to use the same genetics to the extent that an 8th generation ancestor can be 25% of a current individual who still has an acceptably low coefficient of inbreeding. In light of that, I'm thinking that the breeding gurus in Holstein have been doing this sort of inbreeding control all along to have maintained a healthy population with uniform traits from a very (in the beginning) limited herd of breeders (mostly mares). The King Ranch did it; I'm suggesting that Holstein did it as well and would probably be shown to be comparable in a similar study.

    I'm certainly not trying to tell Holstein how to breed; just drawing parallels between populations. However, one major difference may be that King Ranch did inbreed regularly when it was creating its original herd, to the extent that it bred grandfather to granddaughter, uncle to niece, and so on. But it also culled ruthlessly.

    Still, the techniques and deep pedigree study that was done on the King Ranch herd could benefit any group or individual who is attempting to reproduce desirable traits within a limited breeding population.
    Wow, I'm SO impressed with your polite, informative response.

    I would have just told him to bugger off!



  13. #13
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    Jan. 17, 2010
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    I'd love a copy, please

    ttocs1@att.net

    I love to learn from other peoples experiences without having to suffer the consequences of their mistakes.



  14. #14
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    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Default

    I'd love to read it thank you for sharing Viney.

    HeatherS1723@Gmail.com
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  15. #15
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    Nov. 6, 2008
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    Default

    I am looking forward to seeing the research, and am wondering if they had a formula of adding only the TB from top (or vice versa), as most of the European Warmblood breeders do?

    (I p.m.'d my email address...thanks Viney)



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2005
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    Ok Viney , untwisting nickers. You just appear to be jumping on Holsteiners lately.

    The Holsteiner breed and book is alive and well. They have been making room lately (albeit very little room) for some outside stallions to enter their very controlled breeding experiment. Some like Quidam de revel , have worked while others like BDR and For Pleasure have not.



  17. #17
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    Jun. 16, 2007
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    1,843

    Default ruthless culling

    I think that in general a special mentality is required to do serious type shaping linebreeding and few of us are ruthless enough to eliminate undesirable offspring. In dogs they could sell the undesirable as pets but even then it took a different time with large wealthy breeders to set breed type. The warmblood societies are interesting comparisons to the fanciers of the 19th and 18th centuries. They control large numbers of horses by limiting the breeding pool by running horses through the bottleneck of approvals. They don't have to worry about what happens to the undesirable offspring as they are someone elses problem. PatO



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Wow, I'm SO impressed with your polite, informative response.

    I would have just told him to bugger off!
    Did you really think you would get a polite response when you basically told us we couldn't possibly understand breeding our mares due to our gender ?

    And then there's the fact that you insulted the #1 breeder in the world without knowing anything about him or his family. If you bothered to become informed about what you were speaking of......you would have found that this breeder LOVED his mares and was one of the most highly respected men in the breeding world.



  19. #19
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    Apr. 2, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Bayhawk, don't get your knickers in a twist.

    My statement that the research was probably pertinent to Holsteiners was based on the following suppositions:
    1) Holsteiners were a relatively small breeding population in the past--like the King Ranch horses.
    2) They were intensively bred for certain traits--like the King Ranch horses.
    3) They were successful in fixing the traits in their breeding population--like the King Ranch horses.
    4) As far as I'm aware, they do not now or have they in the past suffered from inbreeding depression--like the King Ranch herd.
    5) They are a closely bred group of horses, sharing many of the same ancestors across families--like the King Ranch herd.
    The article shows how a knowledgeable breeder or group of breeders can continue to use the same genetics to the extent that an 8th generation ancestor can be 25% of a current individual who still has an acceptably low coefficient of inbreeding. In light of that, I'm thinking that the breeding gurus in Holstein have been doing this sort of inbreeding control all along to have maintained a healthy population with uniform traits from a very (in the beginning) limited herd of breeders (mostly mares). The King Ranch did it; I'm suggesting that Holstein did it as well and would probably be shown to be comparable in a similar study.

    I'm certainly not trying to tell Holstein how to breed; just drawing parallels between populations. However, one major difference may be that King Ranch did inbreed regularly when it was creating its original herd, to the extent that it bred grandfather to granddaughter, uncle to niece, and so on. But it also culled ruthlessly.

    Still, the techniques and deep pedigree study that was done on the King Ranch herd could benefit any group or individual who is attempting to reproduce desirable traits within a limited breeding population.
    Thanks for posting this. Is there a link that we can go to so that we don't have to overwhelm you with E-mails?



  20. #20
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    Apr. 2, 2008
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    I meant thanks for posting the information about the article, not commenting on knickers of any kind, LOL!



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