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  1. #1
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    Default Do your homebred broodies have a sports career first?

    I have always been a believer in having broodmares who had a sports career (preferably upper level) before being in my breeding program. I know that isn't how everyone feels, and I know the pros and cons. However, for those of you who have kept fillies from your own program, do you put them into sport first? I ask b/c the first filly I have ever kept back for my programs is currently 3 (expecting her first foal next year) and the plan was to put her into sport after foaling and finance that to whatever level she could achieve (I know, ouch on the $$$$). But I'm toying with other possible plans if her foal is very nice. So, if you were in the market for a foal/young horse, would a mare without a performance record matter to you? This filly was highest scoring American bred mare on the AHHA tour last year (she was a 2 year old, but I do think there were several horses tied for the honor). She is a Premium mare and had the second highest free-jumping scores on the entire tour (9,8,9). She has been shown in hand, always with high-placings, has been professionally started under saddle; her dam was a successful show-jumper and her maternal grand-dam was a super successful Grand Prix jumper with Margie Engle. But of course, we don't know if this young mare will be a jumper and live up to her potential until we put her into sport. If she doesn't go into sport she will at least do her MPT. Another option would be to do the Young Jumpers and retire her to breeding after that.
    So at what point do you think a mare qualifies to be a broodmare, and do you think people would automatically turn away from offspring of a mare who didn't have a show career? Just curious to get opinions from others who may have more experience in this area!
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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  2. #2
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    Short answer, yes. The girls we keep go into the show ring for a show career first, although sometimes I will breed one at age 3 and let her prove herself as a broodmare during that first year that we are starting under saddle before putting her into full hard work in fall of her 4th year.
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.



  3. #3
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    For me I am putting my future broodmare in training so I have something of value. Reason being I have done everything probably the wrong way because it's what I could afford to do. I have not bred Abba's mom for 2 years until I see how things pan out. In my book Abba has to be a consistent 1.20m jumper and hopefully the 1.30's before she's breedable. She's only been showing for the last 5 months. She started in the 80cm's and now up to 1.10m. I was actually surprised to learn that she finished 6th out of 42 in her last class at 1.10m! All I knew when we left is that she jumped the first round clear and her timed round clear. I assumed since 29 went double clear she would be the slowest! Surprise! So maybe she might be ok!

    As far as having super mother lines is concerned, I don't think a performance career for a mare is top of the list.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  4. #4
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    It is always nice of course if the dam has competed, but I do not care that much. 80% of the best broodmares in Germany never competed. Contender's, Cassini's, Casiro's, Calido's, Canturo's, Carthago's, Argentinus's dams never competed. Being a good broodmare has nothing to do with me being a good sport horse. You learn more about how to breed the broodmares by breeding them. I believe MPT's test are good however, because they force the breeder to get a rider's perspective, which sometimes is different. All in all, I think if they competed in sport it makes us feel better. The true test of a broodmare is with her production. If they do it, who cares what she did?

    Tim
    Last edited by RyTimMick; Jul. 8, 2011 at 04:31 PM.
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
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  5. #5
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    I ask myself the same question.

    I think the best scenario is to have the mare broke out so that she has a backup career, if needed.

    Nobody wants an unbroke unbreedable mare.



  6. #6
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  7. #7
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    Clayton, CA USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    It is always nice of course if the dam has competed, but I do not care that much. 80% of the best broodmares in Germany never competed. Contender's, Cassini's, Casiro's, Calido's, Canturo's, Carthago's, Argentinus's dams never competed. Being a good broodmare has nothing to do with me being a good sport horse. You learn more about how to breed the broodmares by breeding them. I believe MPT's test are good however, because they force the breeder to get a rider's perspective, which sometimes is different. All in all, I think if they competed in sport it must makes us feel better. The true test of a broodmare is with her production. If they do it, who cares what she did?

    Tim
    Ditto this. I don't think that because a mare shows well it means she will produce well, and the same can be said for stallions. However, I do want to know that my homebred mares are trainable and rideable, so they are ridden before being bred.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  8. #8
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    I totally agree with getting them going under saddle. She has been started and is now off (she is due in January). The trainer has said she is a "real trier, never says no, has a great work-ethic". Whatever path I take with her, she will go back under saddle next year, as a 4 year old, aiming towards her MPT. Just haven't decided where to go after that!
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  9. #9
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    Nov. 2, 2000
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    I'm of the same opinion here. Some of my broodies had a performance career, some have not. Really, from a broodmare's perspective, her career is all nice and dandy, but means nothing unless she can produce talented, athletic and successful offspring.
    Ditto. I started with the idea that the young future broodmares would go a performance route first and then hit the breeding shed, but in the last few years I've found myself concluding that its just not worth it. Firstly, the correlation between show ring performance and production capability is just not there. And secondly, in the US and especially in the H/J world, it simply is not cost effective to pay for all the training and showing that is required to amass a respectable show career. This is compounded by the fact that the mare is not producing any offspring for the program and in the end, too many buyers just do not value the competition career of the mare.

    I much prefer to start the mare and put her in the hands of a pro who is capable of assessing young sport horses and go from there. You quickly find out what you have, what you don't and most importantly, what you need in a sire to improve the mare.



  10. #10
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    Nope! For us, our best mares are career broodmares. They are far too valuable in that respect to waste them on sport.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  11. #11
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    The one I bred I did send down the training/show route to see how she would do ( fine fine fine) and then, when I felt I knew enough about her (and darn well had SPENT enough on her ), and as she then had some show record to point to, I bred her. I have not done a MPT - she is such a hunter type - but I do need to take her to a mare inspection - . She was inspected as a foal.
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



    www.dontlookbackfarm.com



  12. #12
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    Dec. 6, 2007
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    Well,
    We always send our fillies to training and have them take the Mare Performance Test to see what we have. Our plan has been keep them for breeding if they become "elite" ranked at the test (in hand, under saddle, through jump chute). Sometimes our dressage girls have not been the greatest jumpers but I am 2 for 2 so far that made elite and we kept. Once they achieved that title we breed for a foal as the title is not complete until they have produced a live foal.

    This year I am doing the same with my third. However, we are also competing her in USDF Materiale classes as a three year old AND she was bred in the spring. She takes her MPT test in august. She is currently scoring 77 - 78% at USDF materiale, she is a very lovely athletic, highly rideable mare.

    I am being asked... what if she doesn't make "elite" are you going to sell her and not keep her as a broodie like you have always said.... ugh.. dilemna. I think the answer is yes, we need to see what she produces. And... if she can't jump well enough to become elite is that really important if she is a highly rideable and talented dressage horse?

    This story will have to be continued after August 12th... I'll know if she makes it or not. I know I can sell her, people have asked, but after 5 years planning for her, raising her, training her and watching her succeed in the show ring this will be a very hard decision for us.

    In short... yes, I think everyone should send them for "short" career to see if they are what we want to breed for. I personally can't go longer than that because of the financial impact. It is a business and must be run like one. God only knows if I am making the right decision or not
    HiddenAcresFarm.Net
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  13. #13
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    Dec. 14, 2006
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    Default

    I have a Brentano II filly. Homebred. Plan was to keep, then I tought, let's put her on the market and see. But she didn't sold as a yearling, neither as a 2yo (didn't got the price I wanted for) so we tought... Let's train her at 3, show her a little at 4, then try again on the market. But.... Someone was interested in a foal out of her. So she was bred at 3. While pregnant, I tought... Let's see this baby, then send her to training in the fall. But... Someone else wanted a foal out of her! So... Bred again she was at 4. Now that she's in foal for a second time, we are seriously thinking about when will we be able to train her under saddle. She'll be broke trot/canter (was backed at 3) in the fall, even if she is pregnant. But a show career? We don't have any plans to breed her in 2012 as the plan IS that she goes into training+showing+the market. But... If by any chance I have another client for a 3rd foal??? WWYD??? Bred her again and then... whoops she'll be 6 without any show record?? Or say no to a sale??? In this economy???

    Sometimes it is more circumstances that decide for us.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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  14. #14
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    I'm curious Rodawn, did the TB dam of your Royal Senna/TB mare do anything? Not picking on you at all, I will explain.

    This thread has been an eye opener for me really. I know quite a few people on this board have mares that come from super mother lines, ie littered with top level competition horses. So yeah, I get that one of those mares having a competition career is probably not worth while. She will definitely make you more money in the shed.

    However, quite a few of you are like me. You would have a TB mare who has done nothing in the competition (as in performance under saddle) ring. Are you people also saying that competition results out of these mares which are going to be your future broodmares is not important? I'm on about an F1 that you are keeping yourself to breed from. I get that promoting at least one yourself is very expensive, but what angle do you shoot for then for selling the offspring?

    And then to say a competition career from these types of mares is rubbish, well I'm not buying that. The same as all the sudden a competition career of the stallion means crap either. I mean a young stallion coming from a superior mother line, again this will have top level competition horses down the dam's page is one thing, but at some stage something has to compete out of the mares for these horses to be valuable. I mean what is all this improvement over the years in the warmblood studbooks for? I was assuming horses bred for sport. You add things to make the horse competitive in sport. Why else would we have studbook rankings? How could you have studbook rankings and know if the breeding program is working if not for horses competing?

    So in all the answers on this page, I'm the only one who said yes, because of what I'm breeding I feel a competition record is important. And now I'm being told it's not important at all. Just keep breeding because competition is a waste of time. Well sorry but I have to disagree in cases like mine. Oh and I will agree a few years ago you could probably cross anything on a TB mare and have her be valuable in terms of selling, but i don't think that's the case now. And I'm also supposed to feel that if I end up with a 1.30m jumper from my F1 cross that that makes her as valuable as your F1 crosses that went through a jump chute as a 3yo? That would mean that mine stayed sound and proved her ridability beyond a shadow of a doubt. No, I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. Hell in that one competition the other day my 5 yo that did no jumping as a 4yo was able to go out with zero urging and beat Grade A jumpers, horses with pedigrees that way outshine hers, good stallion prospects, and so on but now that's crap.

    I'm not breeding for hunters. Even if I was back in the States I wouldn't breed for hunters. I'm sorry I'm not going to get all excited if one of the horses I bred was a top 2.6 hunter. So maybe it is different from that prospective, I don't know. What I do know is that if I'm breeding for jumpers I need to be able to tell prospective buyers that my horses can actually be worthy in sport. And I need more than jumping through a chute for that. And remember, this was directed at people who are breeding from what I'm breeding from.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
    Ditto. I started with the idea that the young future broodmares would go a performance route first and then hit the breeding shed, but in the last few years I've found myself concluding that its just not worth it. Firstly, the correlation between show ring performance and production capability is just not there. And secondly, in the US and especially in the H/J world, it simply is not cost effective to pay for all the training and showing that is required to amass a respectable show career. This is compounded by the fact that the mare is not producing any offspring for the program and in the end, too many buyers just do not value the competition career of the mare.

    I much prefer to start the mare and put her in the hands of a pro who is capable of assessing young sport horses and go from there. You quickly find out what you have, what you don't and most importantly, what you need in a sire to improve the mare.
    Agreed 100%! We, too, started with the intention of getting all mares out to compete to 1.2-1.3m but even with the A circuit shows in our backyard, so to speak, it is cost-prohibitive. We were able to do this with our 4 foundation mares and now have acquired a few that came after a career in sport. We will continue to aim for IBOP- and MPT- successes, but now feel more confident in our knowledge of our mares from our and our pro's assessments as they are started.
    Sakura Hill Farm
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    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  16. #16
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    Yes, but you did that with your four foundation mares. You have mares you are breeding from with genuine sport records and can now do the MPT's with a strong degree of confidence. I am only starting my "mare line" so to speak. I really don't think I have any choice other than what I'm doing at the moment. To be honest, it's why I love your program so much. It is rooted in sport pedigrees, horses that have proven themselves. I certainly won't be able to compete them all. It may be that this will be my only foundation competition mare and the offspring will be tested accordingly.

    I just don't think it's true by saying " I fail to see how competition of a mare means anything" when dealing with unproven lines. And that's what I'm on about here less anyone get the wrong idea. Because there are a few of us on here, not just me. I'm interested in how these foals or even older can sell for any profit. I would hate to think it's only because it's blingy. And seriously that will only last so long. Once those horses aren't proving themselves in sport, they aren't really high dollar horses. Unless the aim is for on the line showing only I guess.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  17. #17
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    for the most part, yes.Just this week I sold one that I did not want to breed because she could be difficult under saddle. Her new young rider is actually doing great with her and is riding the snot out of her after only having her for a week....which I am thrilled with. They look great already. But I am not sad that I sold her because she was a horse that needs the snot ridden out of her...she is only an easy horse to ride if she is in very consistent work. I can't ride her almost every day and I don't really want to breed a mare that has to be....I personally want to breed a mare with a better work ethic/easier going temperment.
    I have one here now that is not. She fell last year and injured her back. She didn't get past green broke. It has never been quite right since. She is the last daughter of my beloved former stallion and HER dam was a successful A circuit hunter...so at least there is some known quantity in her parents. But... the intent was for her to be ridden first too.
    I have bred a couple 3 YOs and started them while preggo so they really were bred as an unknown quantity first....but OTOH at least at some point I will know how their tude is as their training progresses. And as someone else noted...at some point if you have to sell the horse down the road....it is easier to sell a horse that has been started under saddle at some point.



  18. #18
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    My first homebred fillies are only two, but my plan at this point is to breed them next year and depending on what they produce, possibly the following year. Then they will go into training.

    Terri,

    I am also using a TB mare for jumpers, but she had a long career as a Jr/AO horse and although 1.35-1.45 was her niche, she does have a record at 1.50. She has yet to produce a filly, but her colts will hopefully do the Young Jumpers. I think that will provide more information to me as a breeder than showing in-hand or free-jumping. I do feel a much stronger need to prove her offspring in the ring, mostly because she was bred to race and I need to know if she can pass the jump on or if it's a fluke.

    I can understand why breeders with mares from very successful lines would not waste time showing them, but are you able to get their offspring sold to buyers who will get them in the ring? How do you decide if they are living up to their pedigree and are you producing 1.40+ jumpers?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    Yes, but you did that with your four foundation mares. You have mares you are breeding from with genuine sport records and can now do the MPT's with a strong degree of confidence. I am only starting my "mare line" so to speak. I really don't think I have any choice other than what I'm doing at the moment. To be honest, it's why I love your program so much. It is rooted in sport pedigrees, horses that have proven themselves.

    Terri
    Music to our ears on a Saturday morning, Terri! Thank you so much!
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  20. #20
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    It's definitely nice if the mare has a sports record, but it's certainly not a deal breaker for me. If I like the mare's conformation and movement, she has an excellent pedigree and a strong production record, I don't care whether or not she's competed. My first homebred filly is now 6. I broke her lightly at 3, bred her when she was 4 and she produced a lovely filly by Belissimo M for me when she was 5. Now she's back under saddle and showing the first time at Training Level this year. My goal is to compete her as far as she can go (hopefully to PSG) and then put her back in the breeding shed. I elected to breed her once first, as I figured I wouldn't want to interrupt her show career to breed her, and I didn't want to try to breed a teenaged maiden mare. I think for most people, its very cost prohibitive to put a successful show record on a mare, especially if they are not an accomplished rider themselves and are having to pay a trainer. So much of a horse's competition record depends on the rider and training as well, and unfortunately these things don't passed along in the genetics.



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