The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 143
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,132

    Default How do you evaluate foal movement?

    Every single one I look like appears to have trailing hocks. Doesn't matter if it's a QH or a Totilas. I have a hard time with foal movement.

    Is there a trick to it?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2003
    Posts
    168

    Default

    the best thing is to look at foals that you will be able to see mature into adults. Look at enough and pretty soon you will be able to get a pretty good idea of what the foal will look like as a mature horse when you see it. If you need a refresher, go back and look at photos of the foals once the horse is mature. Things become glaring obvious then! Some peoples' websites will help you with this (mine will once I update it ; )) if they have photos of their horses from foals to under saddle. I don't think foals' hocks trail proportionally any more than adult horses do. It will be interesting for you to follow those you have noticed that in to adulthood and see how it ends up.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,132

    Default

    I keep coming back to this one since it sold for a huge amount:
    http://typo3.hannoveraner.com/auktio...ktion/125.html

    The hind end looks out the back door. I never would have thought this was good. But it sold for a huge amount. And other supposedly top foals are the same way.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2005
    Posts
    2,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    I keep coming back to this one since it sold for a huge amount:
    http://typo3.hannoveraner.com/auktio...ktion/125.html

    The hind end looks out the back door. I never would have thought this was good. But it sold for a huge amount. And other supposedly top foals are the same way.
    If I see a foal like this in the Holsteiner breed , I would immediately pass. This looks like a good example of what the Hannoverian breed has been trying to correct. Big trot up front , no engine behind.

    The canter is way behind the center of gravity and is not reaching up underneath the foal and giving it proper impulsion and true uphill lift. The engine looks to be on the wrong end. It has a big money trot though. JMHO



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2003
    Posts
    168

    Default

    that front leg is probably going to be very, very marketable and memorable once under saddle! There really are so many different types of horses and good thing many different types of people have different tastes. There is one well know dressage stallion that people name reverently that has one of those hind ends that makes me cringe. I always wonder how they don't see it and how they don't notice it in his offspring. To top it off, he is often crossed with a line that would be my last pick based on him needing a quicker hind.... but I am a "hind end" person. Maybe if I was a "front end" person I would get it! (and maybe sell more horses....... ; ))



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2005
    Posts
    2,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nls View Post
    that front leg is probably going to be very, very marketable and memorable once under saddle! There really are so many different types of horses and good thing many different types of people have different tastes. There is one well know dressage stallion that people name reverently that has one of those hind ends that makes me cringe. I always wonder how they don't see it and how they don't notice it in his offspring. To top it off, he is often crossed with a line that would be my last pick based on him needing a quicker hind.... but I am a "hind end" person. Maybe if I was a "front end" person I would get it! (and maybe sell more horses....... ; ))
    And maybe you would have bred in a trait in your herd that is unbelievably hard to correct !

    The love of money is why they are what they are. Greedy trots....



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2003
    Posts
    168

    Default

    yeah, but sometimes being a purist is a lonely pursuit! They are laughing all the way to the bank.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2007
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    888

    Default

    He looks like he's going through a bit of a downhill growth spurt to me, which can certainly affect movement.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2005
    Posts
    2,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nls View Post
    yeah, but sometimes being a purist is a lonely pursuit! They are laughing all the way to the bank.
    They were laughing all the way to the bank selling YOUNG horses with those flashy trots. They've been getting their tales kicked at the top of the sport by the Dutch and other registries as their flashy trot and no engine showed up.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2003
    Location
    Best of golf and equines, NC
    Posts
    5,419

    Default

    As always Bayhawk, I love your subtlety. And as is often the case, I agree with you one hundred percent.

    Not making any comment at all on the lovely foal referenced in this thread, don't know him/her and make no comment.

    But in general, we too wonder how people can gush over such obvious faults, like weak ineffective engagement behind, that does not come under the horse and does not lift or carry the horse. A friend used to describe that sort of movement as, “he moves like a rooster across a barn yard.”

    After watching the “experts” falling all over themselves over horses with obvious faults (like poor movement), over the years we've come to the conclusion that it is simply about sales, often auction sales, which are about perception. In my opinion no one can be missing how incorrect and ineffective that movement is, and I do not believe that anyone with a brain in their head would pay top dollar for that sort of movement, most especially not for dressage or jumping.

    I suspect this all gets back to a mentality that says, “We'll make this high profile sale today, regardless, and weed out this mistake in private in the future.” It reflects a rational for putting someone's private agenda (usually centered around the almighty dollar) over quality.

    Years ago we saw a stallion approved that we knew the registry thought was mediocre. When we asked the inspector how they could do that, the response was that the stallion's owner made them a lot of money, and they would "weed out his foals in the years to come." It turned us off of one high profile registry in this country.

    In the context of breeding, if you put other agendas over simple quality, over the years you will reap the rewards... and it is a mess for everyone but the guy at the slaughter house.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,132

    Default

    Can anyone put up foal videos with nice hind end movment?

    I have yet to see anything I'd call nice. Or who has videos of foal and then a video of same foal as an adult?

    Is the out behind "look" because their legs are soo long in relation to their body mass and in reality it's not bad, it's just how a foal moves?



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    3,247

    Default

    "Greedy trots" I hadn't heard that before...too funny and accurate all at the same time!

    BITS - if you want to take a look at the farm You Tube channel there are videos of lots of our youngstock from 07-current and then undersaddle videos as they mature (or at least for the ones we've kept). Dreamcatcher, Whodini, Wizard - those would be the ones I would suggest first...but it is worth mentioning that they are all out of the same dam - and she gets her trot from her sire, who got his from his sire...who was by Absatz. Aloysius is another but he only has a foal video up (must shoot new footage).

    Just keep in mind - these are not pro videos, so the good, the bad & the slightly spooked moments are in there as well, so it pays to watch from start to finish.

    On the length of leg/way of going - I haven't found that to be the case, rather a somewhat poor engine/engagement of the hindquarters/lazy hind leg that trails...and from a rider's perspective - it's a lot of work to overcome that flaw. What I've been told to watch for (on the easy/quick glance front) is for a hind foot that stays perpendicular to the ground when the fetlock is flexed (the leg is 'out the back'/pushing just as it is about to come forward) - the phrases "toes to the sky" and "flipping their hind feet" are what I've been instructed to look for - at ANY age.

    Hope that helps somewhat.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    10,903

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    If I see a foal like this in the Holsteiner breed , I would immediately pass. This looks like a good example of what the Hannoverian breed has been trying to correct. Big trot up front , no engine behind.

    The canter is way behind the center of gravity and is not reaching up underneath the foal and giving it proper impulsion and true uphill lift. The engine looks to be on the wrong end. It has a big money trot though. JMHO
    Agree that THIS video does not show a foal with good use of the hind end. I wonder if he was tired when the video was taken. I would be curious to see footage of the same foal at the actual auction to see what movement he displayed there that resulted in the huge price BITS referred to.

    As for "trailing hocks", etc., in young foals - remember they have very long legs in relation to their length of body. If they reach well under themselves with the hind legs, they risk clipping the front legs. Also, they do not yet have the balance or coordination or hindquarter muscling of an older horse, so harder for them to "sit" and power off the hocks. And as they tire, their coordination and ability to balance is affected even more. I have seen some young foals that move like QH's when tired, but are pretty darned spectacular when NOT tired.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    10,903

    Default

    LOL, just read Tasker's comment, and obviously her experience is different from what I have been taught about length of leg/coupling/movement in young foals.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Agree that THIS video does not show a foal with good use of the hind end. I wonder if he was tired when the video was taken. I would be curious to see footage of the same foal at the actual auction to see what movement he displayed there that resulted in the huge price BITS referred to.

    As for "trailing hocks", etc., in young foals - remember they have very long legs in relation to their length of body. If they reach well under themselves with the hind legs, they risk clipping the front legs. Also, they do not yet have the balance or coordination or hindquarter muscling of an older horse, so harder for them to "sit" and power off the hocks. And as they tire, their coordination and ability to balance is affected even more.
    That foal sold for 40somethingKEuros.

    What you said makes sense, but how do you get past the young foal movement to know what's coming later?

    I'll take a look at Watermarks videos later today and see if I can't get this figured out. lol



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    3,247

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    LOL, just read Tasker's comment, and obviously her experience is different from what I have been taught about length of leg/coupling/movement in young foals.
    Sorry - should have clarified - I was referring to foals over 3 weeks. There are exceptions for those who take longer to 'organize' but I was going by the' 3 days, 3 months, 3 years' timeframe. Not enough coffee in the system!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    3,247

    Default

    Here are a few photos (and they are our foals, so I'm not critiquing other people's horses or anything like that)...
    Just to talk about the hind foot & flipping upwards after they have pushed off the ground with that leg...
    L-R
    Chestnut - see how her hind toe is flipped up? Not a good sign...
    Grey - it's ok but she's obviously butt high and not really traveling 'uphill', so...
    Bay - not enough engagement or 'lift' in the body and the underside of the neck is bracing. But as a 2 year old - this is a fancy show hunter prospect!
    Bay in foreground - very good lift of the body, good engagement and see how the hind hoof is vertical? - that's what I've been taught to look for in any age horse.
    Black w/ bay mare - not the best angle but this another where the hoof is not flipped up for either mare or foal...

    Hope that clarifies what my coffee-less mind tried to explain earlier.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	daisyring.jpg 
Views:	349 
Size:	23.5 KB 
ID:	33054   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	aprilmoontrot1.jpg 
Views:	187 
Size:	25.0 KB 
ID:	33055   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	wilsontrot1.jpg 
Views:	196 
Size:	22.9 KB 
ID:	33056   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dolcedru.jpg 
Views:	334 
Size:	20.6 KB 
ID:	33057   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	louietrot.jpg 
Views:	249 
Size:	20.1 KB 
ID:	33060  




  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
    Posts
    4,984

    Default

    Wow! Some of you guys are really tough....

    The foal in the video - as DownYonder stated - is butt high and long-legged, and that makes it a little difficult to tuck all that hind leg under a short body. Take a closer look at the slo-mo portion to see how much he really steps under....

    Other than that he's quite uphill and leggy, and those are actually good qualities in my book. Could he be a little stronger? Certainly, but then you also don't know how tired he was when the video was taken....

    Just my opinion....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 11, 2006
    Location
    Collingwood,ON
    Posts
    1,526

    Default

    Personally, I find it very hard to judge foal movement, especially the hind leg. I think it's pretty hard for a foal to show great engagement and a hind leg that steps well underneath the body when their hind ends are 2 inches higher than their withers and they are all legs!



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    8,388

    Default

    When I look at a foal's movement, I look for balance, lack of tension, clear gaits.

    I really want to see them naturally balance backward when forced into a quick, sharp turn or when stopping quickly (think of the way a horse shifts onto its haunches for a good canter pirouette).

    I want to see a clear, 4 beat, non-lateral walk. That may take a while, as they need to figure out how to organize their legs in the beginning. But, by a couple months of age, I want to see a good walk.

    I want to see a trot that always starts powerfully from behind and that has a very obvious and consistent uphill tendency. They must use their hocks well underneath themselves. Freedom in the shoulder is icing on the cake, as a good rider can really free up the shoulder with correct work.

    And last, I like to see a certain looseness and suppleness in their muscles and a lack of tension, so that they are really using their whole body from back to front. Tenseness can show up in a braced, shortened neck and in a tendency to hover a little in the trot, rather than to actually cover ground while maintaining good suspension. That shortened neck may or may not go away by the time they are older, as may the tendency to not cover as much ground, so it is good to reassess on a regular basis.

    Having said all that, babies change very quickly and one day can be superb and a few days later be butt high with their balance all out of whack. They also tire easily. What you may get on the first 30 seconds of a video may not be seen again for a while. That especially goes along with a laid back, easy character in my experience. So when looking at babies there are a ton of variables and they will change over time. It takes ongoing assessment to know what you have for the long haul.



Similar Threads

  1. 325 days, how much foal movement?
    By silanac in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Mar. 12, 2012, 12:58 PM
  2. Foal movement
    By Frwndoh in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Mar. 11, 2012, 11:46 AM
  3. Does having a foal influence the mare's movement/performance?
    By TrotTrotPumpkn in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Oct. 28, 2009, 10:35 AM
  4. foal movement/ kicking?? what to expect?
    By Ducky314 in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: Mar. 10, 2009, 11:24 PM
  5. Foal Movement?
    By Samotis in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: May. 20, 2008, 01:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •