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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 22, 2001
    Location
    Coatesville, Pa.
    Posts
    5,492

    Default What would cause this??

    So whilst trolling the CL listings for dogs I came across one I called about. Short version, it wouldn't work for me but it has an unusual habit that I can honestly say I have never heard of or seen in my experience for a dog so young. So I curious about this.... again not my dog, nor will it be my dog.

    It's a 6 month old purebred lab. She got it a few months ago, also off CL. And the thing eats its crates. Like will eat a hole in a metal $300 full size crate to escape. At most she's left it home in the crate 5 hours. Now I work a normal day, so I think its safe to guess why it wouldn't work for me. But I have never ever heard of an crate trained dog, as this one has been, eating through not 1, but 2 fully formed respectable brand name metal crates!!

    She suggested it might be anxiety. I am just dumbfounded. And yes at 60lbs its not small and clearly its jaws work. It's not the only animal in the place. There's a shit zu and a 14 yr old cat. So it's not like its alone.

    Anyone know anything about this type of behavior?

    Thanks.

    ~Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    20,031

    Default

    Sounds like classic separation anxiety to me.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
    Location
    Eastern Ontario, CND
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    "

    Our BC tried to do the same thing when she was a puppy and cracked a tooth for her troubles. MAJOR sep anx, thankfully with training/age she's "fine" now
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2006
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Sounds like classic separation anxiety to me.
    Ditto. My brother's dog did this. It wasn't pretty.

    Now the dog has a friend and my brother got a job where he works from home, so the issues have been accommodated.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 7, 2007
    Posts
    1,398

    Default

    Not uncommon. Sounds like separation anxiety.

    The dog should be given a Kong toy filled with lots of yummy stuff or a big bone stuffed with peanut butter in the crate with it. And additional crate training is needed.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2009
    Location
    Eastern Ontario, CND
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xQHDQ View Post
    ...
    The dog should be given a Kong toy filled with lots of yummy stuff or a big bone stuffed with peanut butter in the crate with it. ...
    This does not help dogs with true anxiety issues. I know that's a popular solution but a dog that riled up will just ignore the treat.

    However, it does work for a bored dog.

    Exercise is a great way to diffuse the tension, but for dogs with sever s/a you need to do gradual training with longer & longer periods away Or switch jobs . The second one works the best.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
    Need You Now Equine



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 2010
    Location
    Western NY
    Posts
    1,666

    Default hope that dog finds a home

    Crating is not good for dogs with separation anxiety. Whoever takes the poor pup should hook up with a good trainer who is familiar with that issue.
    BTW it's shih tzu.....



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2000
    Location
    Full time in Delhi, NY!
    Posts
    6,398

    Default

    First of all, if the owner is saying the dog is left in the crate for 5 hours, it's probably closer to 10. People lie, and when they want to get rid of a dog they lie A LOT.

    Statistically, a 6 month pup can stay in a crate for 7 hours, so bet the owner is leaving it in there at least that long.

    Secondly, I had a Jack Russell who ate through 2 crates. There was no separation anxiety. She was a completely independent dog and she.simply.wanted.out.

    I don't think it's separation anxiety as much as it is bored high energy puppy. It need a dog walker to come in for one or more daytime visits. The poor puppy is lonely, bored, and starved for affection for most of its day, therefor life.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2008
    Location
    Somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    317

    Default

    Poor puppy. Crates CAN be used correctly, but in my experience rarely are. Sounds like this dog is just being taught to hate his crate and not doing or learning much else.

    I wish I could tell that woman, when your dog chews through not one, but two metal crates, maybe it's a sign you need to do something different. Not get a different dog.

    Also, IMO, people who work 8-5 and are gone 10hrs a day should avoid bringing home puppies.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct. 12, 2001
    Location
    Center of the Universe
    Posts
    7,046

    Default

    people SO mis-use crates. Dogs should never be left in a crate on a routine basis for longer than 4 hours maximum. If you must confine a pup or not-yet-trained-to-behave-in-the-house-dog for longer periods of time there are more humane options like x-pens and baby gates.
    If the dog really does have separation anxiety he shouldn't be crated. It's not unusual for dogs with separation anxiety to go completely nuts and attempt to destroy their crate in a wild effort to get out, often seriously injuring themselves in the process- broken teeth, broken claws, torn up foot pads.
    Bored smart dogs just figure out how to open the crate (I own such a dog) and let themselves out.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 22, 2000
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    2,441

    Default

    OTOH, my separation anxiety dog (Aussie) trashed a room when he got upset. He was confined in the spare room with a comfy couch to sleep on, toys, etc. He had been fine with this arrangement. On this day we had a windstorm and the front storm door latch broke, causing the door to bang back and forth.
    When I came home (about 4 hours) and opened the door, it looked like a slasher movie! Blood everywhere! He had knocked over furniture, chewed all the upholstry off the back of the sofa and then chewed the window. Broke the glass and only the storm window kept him from attempting a two-story jump. In the process he cut his paws and tongue. (Was left with a notch in his tongue) There was even blood dripping down the outside of the house under the window.

    After that he panicked about being left alone, even for a few minutes.

    We went to pharmaceutical help for survival first off. Then I tried to find what would work with him. Hurt himself in the kitchen and in his crate in the finished basement while we worked on training. Eventually found that a large crate in the bedroom (took some creative room arranging) was the best combo.

    A puppy might never have been crate trained properly and panicked when put in (knew someone who stuck their year old Visla in a crate for the first time and left for the day. The dog broke its jaw!). Or it might have too much energy and enjoy the "challenge" of getting out. Or it may be S/A. Hope the dog gets the right evaluation and help.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2006
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    5,035

    Default

    It's a lab. Ever read Marley & Me? I remember the author describing that dog eating through metal crates.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 9, 2008
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    In A World Called Catastrophe
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    1,789

    Default

    Totally SA!!! I am dealing with SA right now. It truly does suck. I've done it before, but this one is different. It's tough!!!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2009
    Posts
    1,464

    Default

    There was a dog in an obedience class that I attended that ate through multiple crates. It is hard to tell without knowing the dog, but in that dog's case I don't think the trainer thought it was anxiety-related - I think the puppy just loved to chew and so he chewed his crates. I am not sure he even associated the chewing with being "free" - I think he was just looking for stuff to chew on. They ended up having to put him in a heavier dog run with a lot of stuff to chew on if they were leaving.
    She may be leaving the puppy crated for hours on end, but do you all think that it is wrong to leave a puppy crated for 7 or 8 hours overnight? I am not arguing with abusing crates as I do think that it is easy to crate a puppy for 20 hours a day between night and during the day. I usually try to keep it varied. I leave puppies in the crate at night, but during the day I usually stick them in a dog run with another dog if I need to confine them for a while. They go out to the bathroom every 2 - 4 hours during the day - but not in the middle of the night as soon as they can hold it.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2009
    Posts
    6,854

    Default

    Basically if you crate during the day, you should not crate at night; if you crate at night, you should not crate during the day but instead arrange for daycare, puppy sitters etc

    Obviously crating for an hour or 2 while you run errands is fine but many, many dogs end up crated for 20 hours a day
    Such dogs tend to have both psychological & physiological issues.

    It's a 6 month old purebred lab. She got it a few months ago, also off CL. And the thing eats its crates. Like will eat a hole in a metal $300 full size crate to escape. At most she's left it home in the crate 5 hours.
    Poor puppy I wonder how much exercise & play & mental stimulation this puppy receives.
    If it's not a puppy mill dog, it should've been returned to the breeder, at this point it would likely do best if placed with a lab rescue.
    (chewing inappropriate objects such as metal crates can damage teeth & jaws)



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2008
    Location
    Somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey09 View Post
    She may be leaving the puppy crated for hours on end, but do you all think that it is wrong to leave a puppy crated for 7 or 8 hours overnight? I am not arguing with abusing crates as I do think that it is easy to crate a puppy for 20 hours a day between night and during the day.

    I try to avoid right and wrong opinions - I'm not the author of morality. I think you are spot on, though, when you say it becomes easy to crate for 20hrs or more. This is what I have seen (much of it through working in dog related jobs): Dog is crated while the owner is a work plus commute time, including traffic and necessary errands. Dog gets a walk or a chuck-it hurling session. Dogs is free until dinner-time unless any undesirable behavior occurs; back in crate. Dogs paces around or is glued to owner while preparations are made for the next day and the boob tube is on. Bed time; back in crate till morning.

    That's probably the most extreme scenario, but also one of the more common with dogs who are crated during the day. It's not uncommon to hear an owner remark proudly, "My dog can hold it for 14hrs." Lucky dogs get a walker to visit them once, or even twice during the day. Accomodations of some kind are generally made for puppies, but are almost always insufficient. Other dogs go to daycare, where a high percentage are overstressed and overstimulated but their owners interpret this behavior as "happiness."

    There's the little formula for how long you can leave a puppy crated based on age. They are still individuals. Of course, for crating-potty training to work, it has to be small enough that the dog can't get away from his own urine or feces, which means the recommendations are that the crate be just big enough for the animal to stand, turn around and lie down. Look at your dog sometime when he's sleeping (uncrated). Could he be in that position in a crate? I have a hard time accepting that a dog spending most or even a lot of his sleeping time cramped up like that is healthy for the joints, etc.

    With regards to Separation Anxiety...the term itself suggests there is a problem with the dog. The reality is a dog should have negative feelings about being separated from his life's purpose, whether that's following you around like you are his Jesus, hunting varmit (like the JRT mentioned above), or whatever traits the dog has been bred to express. The problem is with his environment. He may be taught to accept or even have positive associations with the crate, but he'd almost certainly rather be somewhere else doing something else.

    I'm sure I'll here about the exceptions, but from what I've seen, even the dogs who don't have bad associations with their crates, when given a choice, will choose a cool, quiet bedroom away from the activities of the rest of the home when they are looking for some den/downtime. Some dogs will never choose to go off alone like that.

    So what are we asking of them? I was thinking it's kind of like when new moms who have circumstances that require them to return to work after 6wks first have to deal with being separated from their babies. They adore their baby. Their life purpose is now largely defined by loving and nurturing their child. Yet real life has made demands which violate this basic attachment and sense of purpose. Well, that's not the worst thing in the world, but it feels like it to a new mom. AND she has full understanding of her circumstances and the rationale for acting in a way that feels "wrong." The baby will be fine, she needs to keep her job - yet her body is anxious. It will take time for her to feel comfortable leaving her baby.

    We have brought our dogs into our modern lives, which involves a lot of being away from their people. This is totally contrary to the nature of virtually every dog. Dog's have been bred to love us and do things for us, whether that's help us hunt or sit in our laps. There's no off switch for that drive when you leave the house and them behind. But they can, like the "new mom" learn to deal.

    Ask yourself thoug, How much of your life would you want to spend in a space comparable to an airline seat in a box, with maybe a crossword to do if you're lucky? Ok, I actually had a job kinda like that I was allowed potty breaks and got my lunch break in the middle of the day, but my limit was still 3yrs at 40hrs/wk.

    Anyway, I just think Separation Anxiety is kind of a misleading label. End rant.



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