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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Spinoff...broken horses...Big Vent

    I'm going to jump on the soapbox for a moment. Feel free to share your story.

    This is not to anyone in particular, but to all the riders with important goals and broken horses out there....

    Where do you think these horses go!? You know that "dressage-only" home you carefully placed your gelding with--ya, well their kid went to college and mom sold that horse (or in your case, maybe they lost their job, or they got tired of horses, etc.).

    I am the person who got the upper level (in this case, eventer's) horse that was sold to a dressage-only home. But then he was sold 2 more times across state lines where he ended up as my talented jumping horse trained through second level dressage. The schoolmaster I had always dreamed of buying to really learn jumping on, instead of trying to teach greenies as I go along.

    You know the horse, he's the one with the now undisclosed injury that doesn't show up on a thousand dollar pre-purchase. And the current seller doesn't even know there is a potential problem, because she bought him through her trainer.

    Oh, and good-moving, jumping schoolmasters aren't cheap. So you spend a boat-load on this amazingly talented guy, who breaks down less than six months later and then spent another fortune getting him walk-trot-canter sound for light riding again. Here is the kicker. I board and can't just turn him out on the back 40. Probably like the original owner. And I see this same theme with a slightly different storyline play out for people again and again.

    Man-up people and do what's right--we are tired of your broken beasts. I have limited income for horses, I board, and while I may not make it to the Olympics I am competitive and I have goals too!

    Don't pass your moral dilemma on to me please.

    Sorry. I'm guess I'm still a bit bitter.
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  2. #2
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    Feb. 17, 2009
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    Thumbs up Trot P - Trot



  3. #3
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    Apr. 28, 2008
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    Good-moving, jumping schoolmasters almost always have some serious veterinary past if they are being sold over the Internet. Great, sound schoolmasters get passed around by worth of mouth/contacts.

    I am somewhat jaded -- I just assume they are lame and hope it doesn't turn out to be something too bad. I just bought a 16-year-old schoolmaster pony for my son, and I didn't even bother getting a PPE on it. I figure the pony almost certainly has some lameness issue, given its age. Wasn't limping when I rode or flexed it, good enough.

    This is not really the eventer trainer's fault if they sold it to a dressage-only home. A horse not suited to upper-level eventing can have several useful years as a dressage schoolmaster. Upper-level eventers don't need to keep such horses, you can't keep everything and a horse like this has a lot to offer that dressage-only home.

    The real shame is on whoever dropped the "dressage only" and injury disclosure, and started jumping the horse.



  4. #4
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    Jan. 8, 2006
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    Wait.. I'm confused. are you saying that IF a horse can't do one job due to a physical limitation, I should euthanize it, rather then find another career/owner for said horse? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by ExJumper View Post
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.



  5. #5
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    Apr. 6, 2010
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    San Diego, CA
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    So there with you! While were at it.
    To the seller of said schoolmaster above. Just because schoolmaster is trained to do all of these fancy things and can no longer do them does not make it a kid's horse. Contrary to belief all horses do not like children and just because horse is of a certain age or is light/moderate/flat/less than 3ft jumps only does not make it safe to carry a child.
    Also seller, comments of "that went better that I thought it would, glad your kid is a good/great rider" does not inspire parents to buy said horse.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  6. #6
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    Apr. 28, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by leilatigress View Post
    Also seller, comments of "that went better that I thought it would, glad your kid is a good/great rider" does not inspire parents to buy said horse.
    But so horrible at the same time!



  7. #7
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    Sep. 20, 2010
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    I think what she's saying is, if you SELL a horse with limitations, sooner or later the buyer will probably sell it on. At some point the limitations will no longer be divulged, be it negligence or greed, and someone will get "taken", no matter what precaution they take.

    At no point did I think "dont sell, euth" was meant. Just be careful and maybe lease that "Dressage only" horse.


    I fully agree!

    Huzzah!!

    LBR
    I reject your reality, and substitute my own- Adam Savage

    R.I.P Ron Smith, you'll be greatly missed



  8. #8
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    May. 24, 2006
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    I think that a person has every right to rehome a horse that no longer suits their goals. As long as a disclosure is made at the time. You really can not be held responsible for 3 homes down the road. Horses progress or regress or get hurt as do riders. Just because you are an upper level rider does not mean you can afford to keep every horse you bought that turned out not to make the muster.



  9. #9
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    Feb. 20, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladybugred View Post
    I think what she's saying is, if you SELL a horse with limitations, sooner or later the buyer will probably sell it on. At some point the limitations will no longer be divulged, be it negligence or greed, and someone will get "taken", no matter what precaution they take.

    At no point did I think "dont sell, euth" was meant. Just be careful and maybe lease that "Dressage only" horse.


    I fully agree!

    Huzzah!!

    LBR
    But that means the only horses that can ever be sold are 100% sound, should physically be able to jump a 2'6-3' course, and are young (since many older horses will at least have a touch of arthritis, and some vets would not recommend jumping high/often).

    Personally I think that's restrictive to the point of being ridiculous, especially for people who don't own land where they can keep all these mostly-fine, maybe-shouldn't-be-a-jumper-anymore horses. That's not "broken" for crying out loud!

    And you know, anytime you sell any horse, even a 200% sound 10 year old jumper, something horrible can end up happening to it. Maybe it'll get injured one day and its new owner will still sell it without disclosure, or just ship it to auction.

    Clearly no horse should ever be sold.



  10. #10
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    Feb. 4, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    So you spend a boat-load on this amazingly talented guy, who breaks down less than six months later and then spent another fortune getting him walk-trot-canter sound for light riding again. Here is the kicker. I board and can't just turn him out on the back 40. Probably like the original owner.
    I'm sorry that this happened to you, and do understand that it is widespread--unless you get "no jumping" tattooed on your horse, odds are the message will get lost somewhere.

    And unlike "auction" type horses where you know you're taking a risk on something with an unknown past, it is much worse to feel like his whole history was represented, do a PPE, and still have things hidden.

    That said, I'm not sure the original owner (who did the "right" thing by rehoming the horse to a suitable career) is the bad guy here--it seems that it was really the next seller who presumably knew but didn't disclose.

    What will you do, if you cannot afford to board and don't believe in rehoming to a flat-only home?



  11. #11
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    Oct. 30, 2006
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    Oh, and good-moving, jumping schoolmasters aren't cheap. So you spend a boat-load on this amazingly talented guy, who breaks down less than six months later and then spent another fortune getting him walk-trot-canter sound for light riding again.
    If you are spending a boatload, maybe you need a more extensive vet check.

    Buying horses is caveat emptor "Let the buyer beware".

    Man-up people and do what's right--we are tired of your broken beasts.
    So what would you consider doing the right thing be?
    I don't always feel up to arguing with your ignorance



  12. #12
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    Apr. 29, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    So you spend a boat-load on this amazingly talented guy, who breaks down less than six months later and then spent another fortune getting him walk-trot-canter sound for light riding again.
    I am not advocating passing on an unsound horse. However, horses break-down. You could have had any horse, even one without an undisclosed injury, that had that issue.

    I'm not sure what you mean by manning up and doing what's right in this case. He was originally sold as dressage only, which from your story seems reasonable. At some point, he came sound enough that you looked at and bought him as a jumping horse. That also doesn't seem unreasonable. Sometimes horses recover and go back to jumping the big stuff when laid off a bit. Look at Flexible.

    Good luck with your guy.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    But that means the only horses that can ever be sold are 100% sound, should physically be able to jump a 2'6-3' course, and are young (since many older horses will at least have a touch of arthritis, and some vets would not recommend jumping high/often).

    Personally I think that's restrictive to the point of being ridiculous, especially for people who don't own land where they can keep all these mostly-fine, maybe-shouldn't-be-a-jumper-anymore horses. That's not "broken" for crying out loud!

    And you know, anytime you sell any horse, even a 200% sound 10 year old jumper, something horrible can end up happening to it. Maybe it'll get injured one day and its new owner will still sell it without disclosure, or just ship it to auction.

    Clearly no horse should ever be sold.
    Not entirely sure how you got the above from my post, maybe its that there not reading for comprehension.

    Personally, I would assume ANY older, shown, schooolmaster to have **some** soundness issusses.

    What I was saying is that if you want to be sure that a horse is always treated right, and never put into a situation where it could be sold or used in a manner that was not in the horses realm of capability anymore, you should lease it. At least then yoou have some control.

    LBR
    I reject your reality, and substitute my own- Adam Savage

    R.I.P Ron Smith, you'll be greatly missed



  14. #14
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    Apr. 29, 2005
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    Paris, Kentucky
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    Let's just get this out in the open................."my name is Holly, and I am a breeder". Ok, there it is.

    Most of my very, very good, upper end breeding stock is lame. Why? Because I am more likely to afford those.

    examples:
    mare with a P1 fracture, now a broodie

    mare with a cannon bone fracture and 2 titanium screws, now a broodie

    very promising young Oldenburg mare, kicked in a pasture accident. Owner paid for surgery and extensive rehab, horse did not come back sound, I bought her for breeding

    imported international jumping mare. hurt jumping, rehabbed until insurance ran out, returned to insurance co for Loss of Use policy, purchased for a client as a broodie at a fraction of her value

    The sound broodies in my program were either born here or bought as foals. I don't think that it is a wise investment to purchase a big $ horse currently competing to be a broodmare. BUT, I am very very picky. Lots of riders are on very very nice mares that would make great broodies should they ever become unfit for their current employment.

    THe upkeep on these ladies is probably more (ok a lot more) than if I had a barn full of healthy youngsters, but I take good care of them.......they are giving me the last years of their lives and giving me their bloodlines.

    Oh.....and I've seen an awful lot of crazy, cranky, quirky show mares turn into snufflebunnies when bred, barefoot and turned out 20 hours a day.
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
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  15. #15
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    Sep. 28, 2001
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    I am sorry for your situation; that really stinks! But I guess I am another person asking what the original owner should have done differently?



  16. #16
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Owning the flat-only schoolmaster is really tough. He won't do the job you'd like, but he will do an important job for someone.

    I think the training business has begun to change such that very few trainers can afford to own these horses and retire them when the time comes. That era isn't over quite yet, fortunately. But I wouldn't *sell* a schoolmaster today. I'd happily lend-lease one to the right person/program for a long time.

    These horses take good management and usually some careful shoeing and vet work. If you have the "wrong" trainer, the schoolmaster's value truly isn't there. They just need any broke, good minded horse in their school string. No, the horse doesn't need all the education. Yes, a decent school horse is cheaper to maintain than a schoolmaster who has really worked hard. The trainer who wants a schoolmaster is a special person. But the trainer who is making money primarily through lessons probably doesn't have the funds/land to do a better job with retirement than anyone else.

    Riding is a long term commitment. I learned a great deal because other people put in the time and money to make these super-educated horses and then graciously let me ride them... probably badly. Then it was my turn to make a horse that could teach other people. Now it's also my turn to keep paying for that horse. I don't see any other way to do it.

    It seems to me that there are only really two ways to think about owning horses that doesn't involve losing your shirt. You buy young and green in order to resell near their peak, or at the point you have done all you can. If you decide to keep and enjoy one of your mature, educated projects, you must know that you signed up for something very, very different.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  17. #17
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    Feb. 9, 2005
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    I don't know what I'm saying exactly. I know there are two sides. I don't think there is a one-size-all answer (no I'm not suggesting every horse should be euthanized or anything like that, goodness). And I'm not saying you shouldn't rehome horses. I'm really just taking a moment to vent, being the person on the other end. I'm not blaming the eventer in my case, although it does sound that way re-reading. No, I'm angry at the person who somewhere down the line decides not to disclose the truth because the horse is worth a lot more money that way.

    That said, sometimes manning up IS keeping it forever or putting the horse down instead of passing it on--really depends on the situation. There's nothing like seeing a 22 year old horse with a limp go through the local auction (one reason I only went one time and haven't been back).

    Not everything shows up on a PPE, and why would you spend more on a PPE of an animal that is in your trainer's barn and sound? I thought all the x-rays I did were overboard, actually.

    In my case it was NOT an internet sale, but a word-of-mouth sale. Previous owner was a more casual, beginner flat-only rider and the issues didn't pop for her. Let's just say somewhere down the line a trainer knew, but made the decision to not share the information. But I didn't to get into that in my post, because this isn't a trainer bashing thread--a different person could have withheld the info.

    Like I said, I think I'm a bit bitter. My story is old, actually, but I just watched a similar thing unfold with a friend and I'm just upset. I've also watched some people use horses like they are kleenex. I'm venting. But I hope people are realistic about how this stuff works out.
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  18. #18
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    Nov. 5, 2008
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    As I have been on the receiving end of a "dump and run" situation (horses and dogs,) I applaud the OP.

    I wish the beautiful horse I received almost a decade ago had an honest owner that euthanized him instead of dumped him (severe navicular, major panic/anxiety issues causing him to be dangerous, and a few screws loose.) Instead, he was drugged and passed along to me as an "anyone can ride" type of horse that was also a "great jumper" (I had no intentions on jumping) and the only reason he was a "giveaway" was because his owner felt he needed more attention and more of a one-owner horse versus being in her camp/lesson program. His owner was an Equine Veterinarian. His euthanization was my responsibility.

    For what it's worth, I took the OP to mean disclosures on a horse are often omitted further down the road, and that they wished that didn't happen. OP could have spent lots of time and money on a horse that suits their needs over time and money in diagnosing a horse who was originally sold with disclosures from the get-go. The guilty party is whomever sold the horse and "forgot" to tell the future owners that the horse is NOT sound for (insert activity here.)

    Quote Originally Posted by leilatigress View Post
    Just because schoolmaster is trained to do all of these fancy things and can no longer do them does not make it a kid's horse. Contrary to belief all horses do not like children and just because horse is of a certain age or is light/moderate/flat/less than 3ft jumps only does not make it safe to carry a child.
    ^ two thumbs up

    "Light riding" does not equal 100% "bombproof" horse for little Sally.
    If wishes were horses then beggars would ride...
    DLA: Draft Lovers Anonymous
    Quote Originally Posted by talkofthetown View Post
    As in, the majikal butterfly-fahting gypsy vanners.



  19. #19
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    Feb. 20, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladybugred View Post
    What I was saying is that if you want to be sure that a horse is always treated right, and never put into a situation where it could be sold or used in a manner that was not in the horses realm of capability anymore, you should lease it. At least then yoou have some control.LBR
    Not quite, unless you lease it on your property or at your barn, or can drop by frequently. If I lease your flat-only schoolmaster and take him to my property, knowing he did jumping way back, and jump him some, how would you even know?
    Even if he becomes unsound because of this, unless you have proof I jumped him I could just say hey, no idea, maybe something kicked him out in the pasture.

    You will still have the control over that horse's future, I can't just ship him to auction after my unethical ass breaks him. But then you have a truly broken horse.

    I do agree that leasing is safer, and hopefully most people who lease are not unethical assholes, or if they are at least the owner could find out and pull the horse before it does get broken. But even that doesn't guarantee that the horse won't be used in a way it shouldn't be. Nothing does really, unless the horse stays with you (or at your barn/property if leased).



  20. #20
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    TTP -- I wanted to say, and didn't in my first post that I am so sorry you had to go through this. It is hearbreaking when you put so many hopes and dreams in a horse, any horse, and it doesn't work out.

    I have a good "dump" story. Someone dumped a navicular WP horse on my family when I was a kid -- sold it as sound but it had a very upright shoeing job. We were not that experienced then and didn't know better. A week after we got him home he went badly lame. We ended up taking him to VA Tech, where they said he has some of the worst X-rays they had ever seen. We were heartbroken. There is no way they didn't know, in retrospect. He was probably drugged when we bought him.

    With a great farrier and vet, we were finally able to get him comfortable and keep him that way for 12 years. He took me to Congress, and taught innumerable kids to ride. He was the sweetest, most loving horse imaginable, and I am sure we could never have afforded him if he were sound. We eventually retired him and kept him until he wasn't comfortable any more. He is buried beside my pony behind the barn.

    Sometimes something that seems like the worst thing in the world ends up to be a gift in disguise.



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