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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    That eventing dressage judges should be different folks than judges for "pure" dressage? ?
    I suppose they kind of are to a certain extent. The amount of extra training (for the other two phases) that FEI eventing judges need to go through is extremely extensive, (which is of course a good thing with safety etc) but I think as a result, at FEI level, dressage judges and eventing judges don't usually cross over too much.
    Judges tend to either specialise in one or the other at the very top levels.

    FEI dressage list:
    http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fil..._officials.pdf

    And FEI Eventing List:
    http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fil..._officials.pdf



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Do y'all think that perhaps eventing dressage should have different scoring/judging than "pure" dressage? That judges should weigh accuracy more than gaits? That eventing dressage judges should be different folks than judges for "pure" dressage? That gaits should be evaluated more on how they affect XC than "pure" dressage?
    Yes and no. A good mover is likely to be an athletic horse, so it means something. Also, I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that there is a coefficient for gaits in pure dressage while there is NOT one for eventing dressage. It DOES mean more to get a good score on gaits in pure dressage than in eventing.

    It would be nice to think that dressage judges at events judge a event horses dressage on what a good EVENT horse dressage test and not try to score them based on what a dressage horse would do (although, around here, sometimes the event horses do better dressage than the pure dressage horses!!!). But, I don't think there is much inherently wrong with dressage judging on the surface. I have issues with certain habits and tendencies of judges (ie, not using the scale correctly- 3 points should NOT separate 3rd from 15th), but that's a slow and tedious thing to fix.



  3. #23
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    Good movement in a horse is when his way of travelling if symetrical, his hind feet step into his front feet's steps, and he moves with impulsion and rhythm. I agree that there are different "styles" of good movement, such as a horse with a lot of knee action or a horse with a low, daisy cutter trot. I do not have a preference for one or the other so long as the horse is comfortable to ride and travels well. I have seen horses with boths kinds of movement to very well in eventing, though dressage scores can be mixed because, as someone said, some dressage judges prefer one or the other.

    I would, however, argue the idea that a good mover is very athletic, assuming that poster meant athletic as in the horse could jump well. I feel like being able to move well on the ground is a natural, born-with-it ability that the horse does not need to think about in order to do it. Jumping, on the other hand, is not something all horses do very naturally and many have to really struggle to do it well. Tru was considered a good mover. Dressage judges loved him. But he could never obtain decent form over a fence to the point that he probably would've been dangerous to jump above Novice.
    Tru : April 14, 1996 - March 14, 2011
    Thank you for everything boy.


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  4. #24
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    A horse can be a great mover for dressage/eventing and a terrible hunter mover at the same time. My TB has a wonderful dressage trot -- just trotting around on day 1, he would extend his feet so far forward you could see half his leg in front of his shoulder. Huge stride and suspension. His canter/gallop are naturally balanced and light as a feather.

    But he's a piece of crap hunter mover, way too much knee. I wouldn't bother going in a flat class with him, he's just not what they are looking for.



  5. #25
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    Agree with others that the crucial gait for eventing is the canter/gallop, since jumping is the crucial part of eventing. I don't really consider the trot in horse shopping (though, I mostly shop at the track, which is just an array of bad trots . . . )

    Good dressage movement, of course, goes further than canter (though, IMO doesn't conflict--I think a good x-c galloper will have a good enough, uphill canter for dressage).

    I'm not sure that stated judging criteria should shift, since eventing is about excelling in 3 different disciplines, and I think changing judging directives to focus on jumping suitability would water that down. (Though, I have had several dressage judges comment that my horse appeared ready for x-c--does that count?)

    However, I understand that in straight dressage, as well as eventing, there is a lot of concern that flashy movement is being rewarded more than correct training, or even correct movement. In both disciplines, dressage is training, to strengthen and improve the horse you have, and not a flashy movement show, so to the degree that judging is already veering off, I agree it should reward training over movement, and whatever eventing can do to that end would be a good thing.



  6. #26
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    I agree with several of the points already made. I think you can close your eyes and hear a good mover for the most part. Is the gait true with a natural rhythm? And how does the horse land? My 1300 lbs horse lands far more lightly than my first 800 lbs horse did. That's because he's a more athletic, better mover. He has a fantastic naturally uphill canter and by far the best walk I have ever ridden. His trot wasn't naturally as great, but it just means he needs to be ridden correctly to develop a good trot - we can't cheat and still end up with a good trot. His naturally uphill walk and canter means he can really push from behind, so teaching him how to do that at a trot has been fun - and he is starting to have an enormous trot. He is an 8 mover at dressage shows.

    For the very upper levels, he's not as great a mover. His gallop has too much of an upward phase to it. It's very balanced, but it's not efficient. You actually see his knees as he goes. It feels super smooth and is easy to ride, but we *think* he'd get tired over an Advanced course and have trouble with making time. Then again, he was bred to be a distance horse and gallops a few miles at a time on his own when he's playing, so maybe he would be better than it seems like he would from his back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbridge View Post
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  7. #27
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    When looking at an evnt prospect, it needs to move well for ALL THREE PHASES, not just dressage.

    FIRST AND FOREMOST, I want a horse that will stay sound under a conditioning plan. Even at the lower level, we spend much more time galloping for conditioning than we do in competition. And usually on less well prepared footing.

    So I look for a horse that gallops lightly OVER the ground. It doesn't need to move like a racehors, but it must NOT POUND the ground with every stride.

    The second thing I look for is a true 4 beat walk.
    1..2..3..4..1..2..3..4

    Not
    1.2..3.4..1.2..3.4

    I have turned down at least one otherwise nice horse because her walk rhythm, when relaxed, was uneven.

    I also look for a big overstep at the walk, because that indicates the ability to engage the hindquarters at all gaits (caveat - race horses that are in training often have no overstep because of the type of muscle development created by the speed work, so I would not look for an overstep on an TB still at the track- but I would look for an even 4 beat rhythm).

    The third thing I look for is CORRECT movement. I don't mind paddling too much, but I don't want one that interferes. too much danger of injuring themselves.

    The fourth thing is the QUALITY OF THE CANTER, because that is so important to the jump.

    Only after that do I look at the trot in terms of "quality". Obviously I don't want one that trots like a sewing machine, or one that is tripping over his own feet. But I don't put a lot of weight into the difference between a "good mover" and a "great mover".

    Maybe if I was good enough at dressage that the only reason I was getting 8s instead of 9s was the quality of the trot, I might care more. But I have lots of room to improve my scores by correcting other faults.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Do y'all think that perhaps eventing dressage should have different scoring/judging than "pure" dressage? That judges should weigh accuracy more than gaits? That eventing dressage judges should be different folks than judges for "pure" dressage? That gaits should be evaluated more on how they affect XC than "pure" dressage?

    The results already ARE different because there are things in the straight Dressage tests (e.g., the entering halt, the stretchy circle) that are not in the equivalent level Eventing Dressage tests.

    Also, in the Eventing Dressage tests, GAITS only get a multiplier of 1. In straight Dressage, they get a multiplier of 2.

    Finally, the directives (what the judge is looking for) are different. For instance, consider the 20m circles in Tr 2 and in Nov A

    Straight Dressage - "quality of trot, roundnes of circle"

    Eventing Dressage - "rhythm, bend, balance, shape of circle"

    Notice that the directives for the Eventing test make no mention of "quality of trot".


    In the straight Dressage test, "quality of the (walk, tort, canter)" appears in EVERY directive.

    In the Eventing Dressage test, it appears in NONE of the movements. The only "quality" in the directives is "quality of the transition".


    So, BECAUSE the judges mark their scores in terms of the directives, they already ARE being judged differently.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  9. #29
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    I would, however, argue the idea that a good mover is very athletic, assuming that poster meant athletic as in the horse could jump well.
    Just to be clear, I said a good mover is likely to be athletic, and, yes, I meant that it should be able to jump fairly safely and athletically. A horse that is a "good mover" in a novice test does not mean, however, that it will be a 4 star xc machine, but that it has the right ingredients to carry itself in balance and in a rhythm....both of which are key in being a good jumper. And, also to be clear, I do not mean good jumper as in hunter ring, giant bascule, knees up to their ears form, but capable of getting itself and its rider safely and efficiently to the other side.

    Not every good mover is going to be a good jumper, but I think you are far more likely to find good movers/good jumpers than bad movers(especially the canter)/good jumpers. Movement is just part of a horse's overall athletic ability.



  10. #30
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    Do you really believe that a dressage judge at an event will judge differently? Don't they bring their judge's training from dressage to the first phase despite the directives?

    Who was the dressage judge who posted such nasty things about eventing on Robert Dover's blog? Cindy Somebody, wasn't it? Don't you think that kind of mentality will bring their "pure" dressage training and beliefs into eventing dressage and will simply ignore the directives where eventing dressage differs from "real" dressage? Sort of an unconscious "This is the way I was taught to judge dressage, this is real dressage and this is the way I WILL judge dressage, whether eventing or not"?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Do you really believe that a dressage judge at an event will judge differently? Don't they bring their judge's training from dressage to the first phase despite the directives?
    We have a number of licensed judges here- hopefully one or more of them will answer here about how much attention they pay to the directives.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #32
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    Apr. 2, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Do you really believe that a dressage judge at an event will judge differently? Don't they bring their judge's training from dressage to the first phase despite the directives?

    Who was the dressage judge who posted such nasty things about eventing on Robert Dover's blog?
    That was Cindy Sydnor. And I will say she is (thank goodness) NOT the norm for our judges here. I just scribed for one last weekend who was lovely -- rides GP dressage now but used to event and worked for BNT in eventing. And she was just great and yes, she DID judge in accordance with the demands of eventing.



  13. #33
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    The judge at my last show was a straight dressage judge and RAILED my draftie girl. What she put in was a steady test that you could have set a metronome to, very accurately ridden, showing average bend and suppleness, with a quiet, plesant demeanor, on the bit and moving somewhat uphill for a downhill built novice horse. 49.5. I was horrified. My trainer thought for sure we'd break into the 30's with the test she put in.

    My trainer rode in front of the same judge and her horse had a full on bucking tantrum two or three times and she had a 48.5.

    My *feeling* is that she was penalized for her lack of extravagance throughout the test as opposed to judging each movement for what it was and dinging her in her gaits. That is not how I find eventing dressage judges to score.



  14. #34
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    go to the www.chronofhorse.com opening page and you can see a couple of competitors video do their test for Bromont...love Loughan Glen...could have a better walk but I bet walks are tough to ask for on a very fit eventer. PatO



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