The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 124
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2003
    Location
    Eastern Pacific coast
    Posts
    3,966

    Default

    While at a large county show today, I stopped by the "pony" ring to see a friend. On my way to the ring, I could hear the announcer pleading over the P.A. for a certain rider (I didn't know the person) to come to the ring and jump her round. It was a short stirrup class, and this rider was the last to go. By the time I got to the ring, the rider still hadn't arrived, and the announcer was becoming more irritated and frustrated. The class was running 20 minutes behind schedule. The back gate was crowded with trainers and kids on horses.

    Finally a small girl on a (adorable) POA pony rode up to the in-gate with her trainer at the pony's head. They stopped at the gate, and the trainer began to tell the rider the course, pointing at each jump, and waving her hand describing which way to turn and when. The announcer again firmly asked the trainer to get the rider in the ring. The trainer ignored her. This scene went on for a good 3-4 minutes. The announcer even said she was going to close the gate. No reaction, until someone nearby started to close the gate herself, with the pony on the outside. The trainer quickly sent the rider in, and after closing the gate, yelled at the announcer that she can't be everywhere at once (or words to that effect). The announcer replied that they had been waiting for her for quite some time, and that it was a very large class, so she had had plenty of time. The judge was a witness to everything, and said/did nothing.

    After taking 3 or 4 jumps, the rider went off course and was excused. They left the ring, and immediately the under saddle (hack) portion of the short stirrup came in. The class was very big and it took a few minutes to get everyone in. There was one rider left to come in, the girl on the POA. The gate was held open again while everyone waited. The trainer came up to the announcer and said that the girl wasn't going in the class.

    Here are the two questions:
    1. When the girl's trainer was clearly holding up the class by standing at the gate and showing the rider the course, and the announcer was repeatedly asking her to send the child in (with no results) WHY didn't the other trainers say something to the offending trainer, and urge her to send the rider in ? Everyone had been waiting and waiting for this pair to show up, and now they were delaying the class again. Why no peer pressure from the others ? Just wondering.

    Question #2: I didn't see the parents of this young rider anywhere. She was beautifully dressed, and her pony was well kept and perfectly turned out. So to review: the child is last to go in her class, the trainer holds up the class and when she finally arrives, has to explain the course to the rider, further delaying the class, then the rider goes off course, and then the trainer takes the child out of the flat class. And the parent still has to pay for both classes. If you were the parent, what would you have said to the trainer ? Personally I would've been one very unhappy parent (i.e. check signer).

    I have to say, the whole scene didn't benefit our sport at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2003
    Location
    Eastern Pacific coast
    Posts
    3,966

    Default

    While at a large county show today, I stopped by the "pony" ring to see a friend. On my way to the ring, I could hear the announcer pleading over the P.A. for a certain rider (I didn't know the person) to come to the ring and jump her round. It was a short stirrup class, and this rider was the last to go. By the time I got to the ring, the rider still hadn't arrived, and the announcer was becoming more irritated and frustrated. The class was running 20 minutes behind schedule. The back gate was crowded with trainers and kids on horses.

    Finally a small girl on a (adorable) POA pony rode up to the in-gate with her trainer at the pony's head. They stopped at the gate, and the trainer began to tell the rider the course, pointing at each jump, and waving her hand describing which way to turn and when. The announcer again firmly asked the trainer to get the rider in the ring. The trainer ignored her. This scene went on for a good 3-4 minutes. The announcer even said she was going to close the gate. No reaction, until someone nearby started to close the gate herself, with the pony on the outside. The trainer quickly sent the rider in, and after closing the gate, yelled at the announcer that she can't be everywhere at once (or words to that effect). The announcer replied that they had been waiting for her for quite some time, and that it was a very large class, so she had had plenty of time. The judge was a witness to everything, and said/did nothing.

    After taking 3 or 4 jumps, the rider went off course and was excused. They left the ring, and immediately the under saddle (hack) portion of the short stirrup came in. The class was very big and it took a few minutes to get everyone in. There was one rider left to come in, the girl on the POA. The gate was held open again while everyone waited. The trainer came up to the announcer and said that the girl wasn't going in the class.

    Here are the two questions:
    1. When the girl's trainer was clearly holding up the class by standing at the gate and showing the rider the course, and the announcer was repeatedly asking her to send the child in (with no results) WHY didn't the other trainers say something to the offending trainer, and urge her to send the rider in ? Everyone had been waiting and waiting for this pair to show up, and now they were delaying the class again. Why no peer pressure from the others ? Just wondering.

    Question #2: I didn't see the parents of this young rider anywhere. She was beautifully dressed, and her pony was well kept and perfectly turned out. So to review: the child is last to go in her class, the trainer holds up the class and when she finally arrives, has to explain the course to the rider, further delaying the class, then the rider goes off course, and then the trainer takes the child out of the flat class. And the parent still has to pay for both classes. If you were the parent, what would you have said to the trainer ? Personally I would've been one very unhappy parent (i.e. check signer).

    I have to say, the whole scene didn't benefit our sport at all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 2, 2002
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    6,287

    Default

    Why no peer pressure? 2 possibilities come to mind - one would be that it is a repeat offender and the others knew that, if the threat of being shut out by show management wasn't enough to get the trainer moving, peer pressure wouldn't be a concern. The other possibility - though it seems unlikely from what you describe - is that the trainer could have had genuine conflicts that the other trainers were aware of. I've seen isolated cases where someone in show management tells a trainer to prioritize one ring, but the trainer then gets grief from the other ring. That's certainly a minority of cases though. Unfortunately, some people just don't care if they inconvenience everyone else unnecessarily. And yes, if I were the parent I would be annoyed because from what you describe the trainer's lack of organization clearly penalized the child.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2004
    Posts
    228

    Default

    I keep accidentally slipping over to the H/J board b/c some of the posts look interesting when I log in and scan all the current topics - and then I get myself into trouble b/c we talk differnt languages. But having said that....and not wanting to offend anyone (again!) in the eventing world this wouldn't happen. You know your times to ride all 3 phases. You know it on the Wednesday before. If you don't ride at that time you have to get permission to go out of order. You can bet horse trials are swift and efficient and barring weather or extremely bad organization (which doesn't happen often) you finish on time with no waits. I think this is part of why eventers have so much fun - they know when they have to ride so they hang out and chat the rest of the time. Try it - its a blast!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2003
    Location
    Palestine, TX
    Posts
    2,570

    Default

    Ah, the "pony ring." Your scene is all too familiar... in our local show circuit, there is one little pony who's trainer is just such a repeat offender. I used to work the gate/announce/steward the pony ring... we were told that the pony ring was to yield to the needs of the larger ring, but trainers often took that as an opportunity for extra schooling, smoke breaks, beer breaks, not being ready, etc. and used the excuse of "I was at the other ring." Which was often untrue, as the other gate was twenty feet away and they showed up coming from the opposite direction... but I digress...

    This one pony and rider would, without fail, be standing right by the gate, holding up the class but unable to go in as their "trainer" had instructed them not to without her. After a ten-fifteen minute break of other trainers yelling at ME, but not the offending trainer, the woman would show up and shew the kid in without a word, and proceed to not even watch the class, much less give advice. When the kid rode out, the trainer would wander off yet again, and we'd have to hunt her down for the next class. I felt totally bad for the kid, as she was always embarrassed. Naturally, after all this fiasco and waiting around, one of the grumpier trainers would scratch his kid from the class and yell at ME because "we've been standing around all this time and now my pony is too hot and sweaty to be ridden." I think its much easier for trainers to find the "little guy" to yell at instead of risk insulting someone that they do business with on a day-to-day basis, i.e, other local trainers. God bless those few that roll with the punches and send blame to right direction... My trainer happens to be one that never would let a slacker get away free. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif
    *#~*#~*#~*#~*
    Proud Momma of *Capital Kiss* and Bottle Rocket!



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 26, 2005
    Location
    Memphis, TN / Jackson, MS
    Posts
    1,995

    Default

    Well, sometimes things like this just happen. Often the SS kids are the ones that end up going last on a trainer's priority list. I know from experience that no matter how well you think things are going, one ring will suddenly have a delay or another may go faster than expected and all of the sudden you have trainers with horses in 5 different rings at the same time. I think that the very large majority of trainers try not to hold up the show and are willing to work with the gates. A good group of ingate peeps are very good at sending a trainer to the ring that he needs to be. But sometimes a delay is unavoidable. We sometimes have 30-40 or more horses at some shows and on weekends with the ponies, jrs, ammies, childrens, and adults it is impossible to only have one person on at a time as most of those horses will show on sat and sun.

    As for the kid not immediately going in the ring, the child should not be shorted just because of a trainer conflict and now she is the last rider. Particularly with the SS kids - those are the ones that need the MOST time before going in to the ring. An older more experienced child should be able and expected to go and learn her courses before schooling but the SS kids are just not that well equiped yet, at least a good many of them. They are still very much learning how to horse show. I think the trainer did the right thing by taking the time to help the child as apparently she needed all the help she could get to learn the course as she still didn't get it right. Maybe she needed more time.

    As for her parents, they may very well have been there and either were not watching at all or didn't want to be around their child to make her nervous while she is showing. Not to mention there are trainers that won't allow parents at the gate (with good reason). The child my have had a scarey experience she is trying to overcome, the pony may not be good in flat classes, or for whatever reason the trainer and child decided that it would not be a good idea to do the flat class. As the parent I would think that my trainer would make wise decisions about such things. The size of the class may have just been to much for the child at that point in time.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2003
    Location
    Palestine, TX
    Posts
    2,570

    Default

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sian:Try it - its a blast! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Oh, if only it were possible! But somehow Hunter/Jumper shows work themselves into three ring circuses Even if things were on a clock, some trainer would end up with three kids all scheduled to ride in three seperate rings at 3:03, and she wouldn't realize it until, oh, maybe 3:04 when its FAR too late to do anything.
    *#~*#~*#~*#~*
    Proud Momma of *Capital Kiss* and Bottle Rocket!



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 2, 2003
    Location
    Woodland, Ca
    Posts
    6,282

    Default

    I feel for the kid, but the trainer is clearly woefully unorganized or has too many horses. If the trainer couldn't get the kid to the ring in time than one of the other riders from the barn could have helped her to learn her course and gotten her tacked up and to the ring. The trainer than would have only needed to show up, warm the kid up and watch her go. Short sturrip kids in particular should be learning their course far in advance. They should also be taken to several places around the ring and learn it from there as well because the jumps look different from other sides.

    Management needed to close the gate on these trainers.

    The parents... well the trainer will tell them how the gate person was a big meanie and rushed their daughter into the ring and the poor kid was so flustered that she couldn't remember her course and then the poor kids was so crushed by having been rushed into the ring and forgetting her course that there was no way that the poor dear could have ridden in the flat class and it's all the ring persons fault... never mind that it was the trainers fault the the kid was late, the ring person did them a favor holding the class, and the poor kid probably couldn't concentrate because the gate being about to be closed on her.

    It seems that some trainers almost make a sport of holding up the ring. Like they believe in being fashionably late... or the cool kids don't show up on time.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2005
    Posts
    435

    Default

    I had "THAT TRAINER" that held everyone up and was completely oblivious to it....she also ran an hour behind on lessons and when they did start spent most of the time on the phone....I left quickly. There are trainers who are just plain late to everything, unorganized, unwilling to hire help or just plain have more horses than they are personally capable of managing. If you go to enough shows you know who they are in your area. Ironically the 2 ring or 1 ring AKA smaller shows are the worst. It must be due in part to management not wanting to upset the trainers. It is amazing how you can go to a 6 or 7 ring show and everything runs like clockwork including the trainers being where they need to be. It is a rarity that a class gets help up for any major amount of time...yes it does happen there are always going to be unforseen conflicts but that is different from knowing who will be holding up the classes before the show even starts.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 4, 2000
    Location
    So. CA Freeways
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    I don't like waiting unnecessarily for a trainer anymore than the rest of you but sometimes it just happens. I really try to work with the back gate people but sometimes problems happen in another ring and the well thought out plan just doesn't work the way everyone thought it would.

    That being said I think the back gate person should have backed off once the kid and trainer were at the gate. Think of the poor kid. She knows people are upset. She is having trouble learning the course and then the back gate person is causing more tension. At that point another minute or two to make sure the poor short stirrup kid knew the course wouldn't make any difference. How can the trainer send her in when she doesn't know where to go? Yes, I do teach my kids to learn the course before their class but my heart still goes out to the poor little kid. She may not have gone into the flat class because she was so upset about going off course. We shouldn't take out our frustration with unorganized or rude trainers on the poor little kids. I'm not so compassionate with the older divisions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are. - King Soloman (970-928 B.C.)



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 2004
    Posts
    181

    Default

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Release First:
    my heart still goes out to the poor little kid. She may not have gone into the flat class because she was so upset about going off course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Mine, too. My own kids have had mini-break downs right before a class, and thank God their trainer took the time to try to settle them down and boost their confidence. Sometimes a delay stems not from a trainer's selfishness, but from their sheer concern for a little rider with a trembling bottome lip.

    As for why the other trainers said nothing? I'd venture to say its because they *all* have had the same experience, and done exactly the same thing...

    And can't we all relate to this particular trainer when she said "I can't be everywhere at once"???



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
    Location
    Apex, NC
    Posts
    725

    Default

    &lt;Flame suit zipped all the way to my chin http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/uhoh.gif&gt;

    From the other side of the fence....if you are the parent paying for your child to be coached....wouldn't you want the class to wait on your child's trainer as well?

    I am meticulous about my time management in life, and in the horse show world....but sometimes it is unavoidable to get stuck at another ring for a few minutes. (Granted this incident sounds like an excessive amount of time) I do not agree with holding flat classes above the short stirrup level, but I would be FUMING if any of my students from Short Stirrup up through the 3'6" were forced into the ring for an over fences trip without me at the gate......afterall, that is why I am paid to be there.

    I 100% agree that some trainers abuse the situation and do not make an effort to properly manage their time and work between multiple rings.......but I also can sympathize as a trainer that conflicts DO indeed happen from time to time, and there is nothing that can be done about it other than have a ring sit empty for a few minutes.

    As far as the trainer pulling the child from the flat class......who knows what the reason was. Maybe it was the trainer being ugly. Maybe the child was so upset about going off course that she didn't want to flat. We can only speculate.
    Lesley M. Jenks
    Finally Farm ~ Located at Yates Mill Farm
    Raleigh, NC
    www.finallyfarmnc.com



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 4, 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Certainly there are times when a trainer has ring conflicts and has to hold a class. However, at a big show, as it sounds like this one was, some of these divisions go for hours. With just a bit of planning most trainers can go from ring to ring, getting everyone in with some planning, i.e. one rider goes early in one division, other one goes late in their division...
    That said, I have been at shows this season and had trainers hold a class, that was going for a couple of hours, for over 45 minutes. Others where the rider does one course, and then holds the ring for a 1/2 hour while they school again. And, most times, you can name the 1 or 2 trainers that will do this even before the show starts! Seems as if these trainers are one of 2 types: the, "I am such a big time trainer" or "I think I am big time, so you can all wait for me"
    If we want this sport to be more professional, there should be a time limit at the gate as to how long the ring will be held, after that the rider is scratched. Say 1/2 hour.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May. 22, 2005
    Posts
    144

    Default

    I was at a AA show last summer where in the Large Juniors, the management DID close the gate on a MIA trainer. The rest of us jogged in and prepared for the under saddle while the trainer proceeded to show up and throw a complete fit. The ring had been waiting for her for a good 30-45 minutes, it was HOT outside, so all of us were standing in the heat waiting for the jog (very unfair to these poor horses). Anyways, point is...trainer made a huge scene, complained loud and clear in front of the entire show to the management but still did not get her way.

    So maybe managements like to threaten to close the gates but not actually do it because they dont want to have to deal with the complaining customer or loosing customers. I am in no way trying to defend this way of managing, but trying to possibly explain why they do things the way they do.
    *ExBIGeqGIRL*
    \"Horses give us wings...\"



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 8, 2001
    Location
    up the hill from the little river (that floods alarmingly often)
    Posts
    3,628

    Default

    I'll go on ahead and don my flame suit -- I'm sure what I'm about to say will get me ripped a new one.
    My trainer taught us from the beginning, when I was about 7, that being late to a class or holding it up in any way was disrespectful to the judge and to your fellow competitors.
    There's got to be a tradeoff somewhere ... at what point would losing "customers" who can't get their acts together be made up for by all the folks who start coming to this show because they KNOW the management won't put up with such crap and they'll all get to ride while it's still light outside?
    I've been the competitor waiting and waiting and waiting because Suzy So-and-so couldn't possibly ride her course without her trainer holding her hand, and said trainer was off somewhere ... doing something. I've been the groom who's got all the other horses from our farm ready to go home, all our stuff packed, it's 9 p.m., and we're waiting on one class because of one trainer conflict, preceded by a whole day of such things.
    Horse shows aren't cheap. The training necessary to be able to show is not cheap. It would tick me off royally if I was paying as much as some of you do to go to an A show and ended up waiting around for a trainer who brought so many horses he/she couldn't handle getting them all schooled and to their classes on time.
    The trainer either needs to organize her time better or take fewer horses. No one benefits when the trainer's got too many horses/not enough time. Everyone gets pissy -- the other riders, who may have other classes; the other trainers, who have other riders/horses to school; the horses, who'd much rather be back at the trailer/barn munching hay without that saddle still on; the judge, who's probably looking forward to a nice cold beer; the grooms, who know they'll be up till the wee hours of the morning taking care of the horses whose show days didn't end until well after dark.
    This sort of thing isn't going to stop until competitors, trainers and especially show management take a stand. If no one says anything at the show but saves all their pent-up frustration till Sunday night after they get home, nothing is accomplished. And yes, if show management has the temerity to actually close the gate on a late entry, then there will be
    b!tching and moaning like you wouldn't believe, and people cussing up a storm, saying they're NEVER coming back to this show EVER again. (I'm of the opinion that as these people are the ones causing the delays, it would solve many of the problems if they did leave and never came back. But then again, I'm not the one paying to put these shows on, and simple economics plays a much bigger role.)
    But the prospect of a show run ON TIME, without 20-minute periods where the ring is completely empty, and horses are standing around in the heat tacked waiting for a jog, might just draw some folks back into competing. It would be wonderful to go to a weekend hunter show and know if you're riding the fourth division there's a chance you'll be home before dark.

    All right then. Fire away.
    Full-time bargain hunter.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2000
    Posts
    499

    Default

    O.K. I believe I was at said show and it was pretty much a mess, even though this particular management company usually does an excellent job of organizing the classes and schedule. That said, there was a large show, not associated with the hunter jumper show, going on at the same time. If they had the use of another arena I am sure things would have run smoother. The short stirrup ring was a long way from the other rings and a very long way from the warm up rings.

    That said, I believe that the short/long stirrup ring should take trainer priority due to the lack of experience of the riders. I got caught in the same quagmire of having riders going in three rings at the same time. My more experienced aa rider went by herself and I watched from the short stirrup ring. I also missed my junior rider as well. These riders should, at this point, be able to go around by themselves from time to time. I wouldn’t make it a habit to miss my riders, but I firmly believe that a trainer should do everything possible to keep the show running. The first day the show ran nearly twelve hours and everyone was pretty much cranky by the time Sunday arrived.

    Also, it can be helpful when a rider is with a large barn to have the more experienced riders go to the ring with the short stirrup rider and discuss the course with them. All of my riders help each other and when I do have the kid schooled and she is waiting at the gate for me, they know their course. They are taught very early on that it isn’t my responsibility to know it, it is theirs. I will discuss lines and strides, but ultimately it up to them to know the course.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr. 16, 2005
    Posts
    6,769

    Default

    equitationlane,

    Amen... very well said.

    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2003
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    106

    Default

    I am strongly with the group that wants shows to run on time. If there were clear consequences for not getting to the ring, people would quickly figure out how to get to the ring. If it takes an hour of hand-holding to get the rider to the ring, then either the trainer needs to plan accordingly and bring the appropriate staff or perhaps that rider needs to spend more time practicing at home before attending a rated show. I don't see that as the show's responsibility, nor do I think it is fair to other exhibitors and especially the judge to make them wait.

    Granted, there are legitimate conflicts and those can and should be accommodated - within reason on all sides. It happens every day, to the credit of skilled back gate people, trainers, grooms, and riders all working together. It's the exceptions that drive us all nuts and that need to stop.
    Heads up, Hearts up



  19. #19
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2003
    Location
    top and bottom of the east coast
    Posts
    1,345

    Default

    yeah, commenting from the eventing and dressage side:
    thats why for a dressage test you are given a time, if you need to try and switch the order thats usually ok as long as other riders and the show agrees. even so, once it is time for your test, when the judge is ready a bell rings and you have 30 seconds (i think) to get your butt in the ring. you keep on circling and waiting... bye bye.

    when it comes down to the the LAST rider, if i was the show manager, you have 2 minutes, after that you are out of luck, should have been on time.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 29, 2002
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    1,059

    Default

    Let's face it, shows are where trainers make most of their money. That being said, some trainers are just plain greedy and DO take too many riders to properly manage and won't use assistants to help them - 'cause than you have to share the money.
    *Ride and let ride...*



Similar Threads

  1. Jumper class questions from a non H/J rider
    By butiwantedapony in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Apr. 21, 2012, 11:06 AM
  2. Holding classes for a trainer
    By Luseride in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: Feb. 8, 2012, 02:24 PM
  3. Judge questions in showmanship class
    By Wholehearted in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Jul. 24, 2011, 10:39 PM
  4. Show list/ class questions?
    By PowersPercent in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jul. 7, 2011, 09:35 PM
  5. Pony Medal Class Questions
    By pwynnnorman in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Jul. 8, 2010, 06:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •