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  1. #41
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    Apr. 30, 2009
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    N. Florida
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    419

    Default vtdobes

    I've met your breeder Tracy and talked to her about a puppy some years ago. Do you know if she takes her litters to Sophia Koster for cropping? Sophia is in NJ and does some of the nicest crops in the country. Your bitch has lovely ears that look like Sophia's work. My 5 yr. old bitch was done by Sophia has beautiful ears.



  2. #42
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    Aug. 3, 2004
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    Vermont
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWinston View Post
    I've met your breeder Tracy and talked to her about a puppy some years ago. Do you know if she takes her litters to Sophia Koster for cropping? Sophia is in NJ and does some of the nicest crops in the country. Your bitch has lovely ears that look like Sophia's work. My 5 yr. old bitch was done by Sophia has beautiful ears.
    I don't remember the name but I know the cropper comes to her place and does everyone right there. So no traveling for the pups.



  3. #43
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    Feb. 12, 2010
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    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vtdobes View Post
    Does this look like scar tissue on chopped off ears?
    http://bobcatmorgans.com/rain.html
    Those are the biggest ears I have ever seen!!

    (keep in mind my above post about my Aussie however).
    Last edited by White Lie; May. 11, 2011 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Just wanted to add what a beautiful dog you have.



  4. #44
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    Apr. 30, 2009
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    N. Florida
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    Default That wouldn't be Sophia

    She is a DVM and practices out of her clinic in NJ. Lots of people travel far to have her do their cropping. I would bet that Traci uses the same person that Ray C. uses. She travels to the litter. There are a limited # of people who do really nice crops.



  5. #45
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    Aug. 3, 2004
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    Vermont
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    Default

    I just changed my profile pic to my 12 week old pup (photo at 10 weeks) so you can see his crop.

    No scar tissue or chopped off ears there either Though I just took the posts off...



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2009
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    N. Florida
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    419

    Default Awwww......what a sweet looking Doberdude!

    He has such a sincere expression. Nope, doesn't appear to be suffering to me. His ears look very nice.



  7. #47
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    Aug. 3, 2004
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    Default

    Thanks! He's a good boy; got him from Traci too!



  8. #48
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    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
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    40,183

    Default

    Here is more and some pictures with and without cropped ears:

    http://dobermansden.com/dobermanearcropping/

    I like the uncropped better because the dog looks friendlier.
    When we went to nursing homes with our sweet show dobie, with cropped ears, the residents generally thought she was some kind of greyhound, but some nurses and other visitors knew it was a dobie and were scared.
    With their natural ears, you don't find that, they are just another nice dog come to visit.

    Now, dogs with ears like natural eared dobies tend to have aural hematomas and those are a mess to treat and tend to reoccur.

    I think puppies and owners of cropped puppies do have both to go thru much trouble, but if some prefer that look, it is up to them to decide what they and their puppies will do for that look.
    I think we do go overboard at times about what we think and demand others do, just because we think we know better.
    Differences of opinion doesn't mean everyone that doesn't agree with me is wrong and needs to be tarred and feathered.



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2010
    Location
    Texarkana, AR
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    Default

    I'm ambivalent about ears. I have seen some dobes, danes, etc with nice looking natural ears and some with big ol' droopy hound dog ears. I think uncropped mini schnauzers are cute if their ears tip over but not with the big stand up bat ears.

    Tails are another story. To me, a long tail on a normally docked breed just looks weird and ungainly, especially on the terrier breeds.

    I used to show wire dachshunds and bred a couple of litters. I always removed dew claws. All my dachsies hated having their nails clipped and the dew claw was just another nail to trim. Since the wires have fuzzy feet, that made clipping dew claws more difficult and the dew claws made grooming their feet furnishings harder. On the smooths and longs, if an individual was light chested or light boned, I might leave a dew claw to fill in the space and give the appearance of more bone or a deeper chest, otherwise I'd remove them. I've never seen a dog actually use a dew claw, they are just another nail to clip and a real PITA if they are injured when the dog is an adult. When I did my pups at 3 days old, they were more upset about being away from mom than having the dew claws removed. One snip and a drop of surgical glue and they were done.



  10. #50
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    Jun. 9, 2003
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    Alabama
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    5,469

    Default

    Oh the rationalization of humans for doing something *they* want to do, be damned the harm or suffering of the poor animal. Of course those who *like* the cropped ears try to pooh-pooh the suffering and deny it. Yeah, right! Maybe they should also have them pierced and wear earrings too!
    PennyG



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan. 7, 2011
    Location
    In Washington with my little quackers
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    501

    Default

    I hate dewclaws. In the year that I have had my heeler she has broken both dewclaw nails numerous times. The nails tear apart and expose the soft insides and its painful for her. It doesn't matter how short I keep them clipped either. I wish her breeder would have had them removed when she was young so she wouldn't be painful now. It's such a simple procedure.



  12. #52
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    Apr. 30, 2009
    Location
    N. Florida
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    419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Here is more and some pictures with and without cropped ears:

    http://dobermansden.com/dobermanearcropping/

    I like the uncropped better because the dog looks friendlier.
    When we went to nursing homes with our sweet show dobie, with cropped ears, the residents generally thought she was some kind of greyhound, but some nurses and other visitors knew it was a dobie and were scared.
    With their natural ears, you don't find that, they are just another nice dog come to visit.

    Now, dogs with ears like natural eared dobies tend to have aural hematomas and those are a mess to treat and tend to reoccur.

    I think puppies and owners of cropped puppies do have both to go thru much trouble, but if some prefer that look, it is up to them to decide what they and their puppies will do for that look.
    I think we do go overboard at times about what we think and demand others do, just because we think we know better.
    Differences of opinion doesn't mean everyone that doesn't agree with me is wrong and needs to be tarred and feathered.
    I guess that 10 minutes of taping could be considered trouble but in my world it's not. We dremmel nails and trim whiskers as well as brush teeth weekly so it's just part of grooming. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting either natural ears or tails, I love the breed and respect the rights of others to have their prefference. I just can't agree with people who think that cropping and docking are abusive. I find it particularly interesting that some of those people think nothing of all of the artificial things we do to and with horses. We break them, we train them on a very physical level and we work them much harder than most dogs will ever work. We use longe whips and crops and spurs.........

    As for cropped ears making dogs look less friendly, that is a double sided coin. I want and expect my Dobermans to BE friendly and safe but I'm not sure it's an advantage that they appear to be so. JQP tends to distrust Dobes period. As an owner you have to get past that because it is just that way, whether they have cropped ears or natural. If cropped ears make people more wary it can be an advantage. We live out in the country and although it's not a high crime area it is certainly an area where opportunistic crime is possible. Three cropped Dobes probably look like a serious deterrant and I think that's just fine.



  13. #53
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    Feb. 22, 2007
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    3,928

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWinston View Post
    The reason for this was taxation. Working farm dogs were not subject to taxes but pets were. Strange but true.
    I didn't know that, but it makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why they cropped Australian Cattle Dogs' tails (I'm guessing it's the same as for Australian Shepherds) since ACDs have those awesome short strong tails they use so much for balance anyway. I'd only heard that BS "it will get stepped on by livestock" explanation, which as I said in a previous post goes totally out the window if you've ever, you know, actually seen ACDs around livestock. They might get kicked in the face, but their tails are certainly in no danger of being stepped on!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    The one thing I absolutely agree with you on is declawing. It is horrendously painful for the cat and changes the way they walk. It's not just a claw that's being removed, it's the first knuckle on every toe. A cat with a a missing tail, ear, eye, or even leg is 100X better off than a cat who is declawed IMO.
    Amen. We declawed my family cats when I was a kid, and my mom says she still feels guilty for it (she didn't know better at the time, and the vet recommended it since there were young kids in the house ) even though they adjusted well. I have an adopted cat however who was declawed in front by her previous owners and dumped, probably for litterbox issues (we have to use a special and very expensive litter or the texture irritates her paws, which is common in declawed cats) and behavioral issues...she kneads constantly and bites a lot, again things that can be caused or exacerbated by declawing. On top of that she's only 5 and already has arthritis in her front legs.

    I think declawing is absolutely cruel and I would never have that done to one of my cats. It's definitely in another category entirely from ear cropping, tail docking, or dew claw removal.

    And I have to admit, I can hear and accept the arguments about ear cropping that it doesn't hurt that much if done right (and I did see puppies suffering from it, but I'm definitely not confident that it was well done or well cared for) but I do have a problem with any purely cosmetic alteration like that. And having worked for Petsmart in Albuquerque and fielded calls asking if we sold special scissors for docking tails or DIY ear cropping kits (this happened waaaayyyy too often at the Petsmart I worked at, the standard response was, "That should only be done by a vet. Please call a vet. We can set up an appointment with Banfield right now. Please."--not that Banfield is a great choice, but it's better than DIY), I do feel that those breed standards do cause unnecessary suffering for many pups. It is the fault of the BYBs for sure, but it is still unnecessary suffering caused by the standard.

    That said, I would not legally ban docking/cropping/dew claw removal. I would not do those to my own dogs unless there was a physical reason (as in preventing injury) but I'm also not involved with breeds that require them so I do recognize that my comments are limited. I do think they are a barrier for me getting involved in certain breeds. For example, my partner always wanted a Dobie but we went with a Shepherd instead because I said I wanted a pup with natural ears and he wanted a cropped one (and then a GSD showed up randomly on our farm, so that did kind of end the discussion...however if we had been able to agree on a breed otherwise we would have rehomed him).

    I would absolutely ban declawing, though. Honestly with the bad transitions I have seen and heard of, euthanasia might be kinder if a cat has such severe clawing behavior that it can't be managed. But with all the awesome cat furniture and different scratch post materials/designs and things like Soft Paws, there's no reason at all to declaw a cat IMO.



  14. #54
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    Apr. 15, 2008
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    1,180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrows Endure View Post
    What's truely sad, is that the AKC punishes dogs with natural ears in the show ring. The boxer breed standard states that the judge should take off points for a dog with natural ears. So if you have two dogs identical in every way except one has natural ears one is cropped, the cropped dog will be placed above the natual dog every time. There is something wrong with that....

    There is nothing in the AKC breed standard that punishes a natural ear on a boxer!!! "Set at the highest points of the sides of the skull, the ears are customarily cropped, cut rather long and tapering, and raised when alert. If uncropped, the ears should be of moderate size, thin, lying flat and close to the cheeks in repose, but falling forward with a definite crease when alert"..... The word "customarily" does not mean one is better that the other!

    Please do not give wrong information on this.
    We do not have an overpopulation of dogs, we have an under population of responsible dog owners!!!



  15. #55
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    Jul. 17, 2009
    Location
    south eastern US
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    2,519

    Default

    Cropped ears are abuse, plain and simple. I'm not on the fence about that one at all. Tail docking...whole 'nother story. If it is done by a qualified vet while the pups are teeny tiny then I don't have problem with it. Dew claws are another subject altogether. I wouldn't just have them removed for no reason. I did have them removed from one pup because he is a long haired breed, they were fairly loose and kept getting tangled in the hair of the opposite leg and tripping him up and causing him pain. All my other dogs still have all their appendages (except for tail crops on two yorkie types) I have an australian shepherd with half a tail. It wasn't cropped, that's how he was born. He had nine siblings and every one of them had a different length tail, from nubbin to full size. I love Brody's half tail....it makes him fairly unique.
    "My biggest fear is that when I die my husband is going to try to sell all my horses and tack for what I told him they cost."



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2009
    Location
    N. Florida
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    419

    Default Plain and simple

    Some people really are that. If you ride, drive, break, train horses, pull manes, use a twitch, bit, bridle, spurs, whips etc, it's not as simple as you think. Maybe we should not geld stallions, that's pretty painful and brutally graphic. After all we just do that to make life easier on ourselves and make the horse more easily useful. If you disapprove of docking and cropping, just don't dock or crop. It's very simple.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec. 30, 2009
    Location
    The Great Plains of Canada
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    3,062

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    One of the few people I know whose Dobe's ears are natural had an interesting reason for leaving them alone.

    Her condo complex bans Dobermans. She hoped leaving the ears natural would fool the sorts of people who might complain. She's had Alex (whose most dangerous characteristic is his tongue - he's a big kisser) for six years now and either no one's figured it out or can't be bothered to rat on her!
    Though mine WAS a cross, she looked very much Dobe, but because she had natural ears and tail (and I quote), most people never guessed her to be a Dobe x. Go figure. My announcement that she was in fact a Dobe x would always be met with shocked expressions "she's a what? Really? But her tail! Her ears!" People were lost without that c/d.

    When the ex took her when we went our separate ways, I impressed upon him the importance of registering her with the city, etc, as her crossbreed and not as a Dobe or Dobe x. For one, his house insurance won't accept Dobes and two, I'm absolutely petrified of the effects of BSL one day, or some other repercussion she might suffer as a result of there being physical proof she's a Dobe x.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  18. #58
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    Dec. 30, 2009
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    The Great Plains of Canada
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    Default

    I didn't realise de-clawing cats included removing the first knuckle

    As for the cropping, as I understand it, it should be done by a professional - someone with extensive experience and expertise. Such professionals are highly sought after, as mentioned in posts above mine. Owners who do their proper breed research, who educate themselves, and who fulfill their responsibilities to their dog to the fullest - who do everything every dog owner should prior to acquiring a dog - take special care to take their dog to such a professional. When done by such an individual, the process is 'simple' and about as painful as a S/N. Seriously, I mean aside from the taping afterwards, what makes it so different from a S/N surgery??? Only the purpose - and if that doesn't sit well with you, don't do it. Complications such as infection, scar tissue, and excessive discomfort and pain are almost exclusive to an amateur with insufficient skill (with exceptions of course). Ime (albeit limited) a good crop really should not leave scar tissue nor be painful.

    Sure, dogs, just as any animal, can hide pain pretty well but usually there is some evidence in their behaviour, of pain or discontent. The puppies I've seen cropped were obviously playful, energetic, and just generally non-plussed about the whole affair. There was never a moment where I wondered that they might be in pain or discomfort.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  19. #59
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    Apr. 30, 2009
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    N. Florida
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    419

    Default Yep, thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by naturalequus View Post
    I didn't realise de-clawing cats included removing the first knuckle

    As for the cropping, as I understand it, it should be done by a professional - someone with extensive experience and expertise. Such professionals are highly sought after, as mentioned in posts above mine. Owners who do their proper breed research, who educate themselves, and who fulfill their responsibilities to their dog to the fullest - who do everything every dog owner should prior to acquiring a dog - take special care to take their dog to such a professional. When done by such an individual, the process is 'simple' and about as painful as a S/N. Seriously, I mean aside from the taping afterwards, what makes it so different from a S/N surgery??? Only the purpose - and if that doesn't sit well with you, don't do it. Complications such as infection, scar tissue, and excessive discomfort and pain are almost exclusive to an amateur with insufficient skill (with exceptions of course). Ime (albeit limited) a good crop really should not leave scar tissue nor be painful.

    Sure, dogs, just as any animal, can hide pain pretty well but usually there is some evidence in their behaviour, of pain or discontent. The puppies I've seen cropped were obviously playful, energetic, and just generally non-plussed about the whole affair. There was never a moment where I wondered that they might be in pain or discomfort.
    My experience exactly.



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2006
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    NY
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    Default

    Honestly, I don't get that fussed about tails or dewclaws. Dewclaws are not very functional and oy...the pain & mess when they get caught. My childhood dog had her dewclaws and honestly....I can't imagine not having them removed as a wee puppy in comparison to some of the injuries she suffered as an adult.

    I own and show my brittanys and they have docked tails. They are done at 2-3 days old by a vet who uses a local (topical) anesthetic. It's really not a big deal.

    Ears are another story, although I am not against the procedure. It is different, and needs to be done properly by a vet (whereas tails can be cut by a breeder if they desire). A bad ear job is horrendous, but a good one is clearly not horribly painful or traumatizing for the dog. (Certainly not more than neutering....I have a dog who is permanently traumatized at the vet due to neutering. Not sure why he was so affected, but he was!)

    I think if we, as a society, allow circumcision of our newborn boys, and ear piercing of our baby girls....it's tough to argue that we should ban the proper and careful modification of any other animal.



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