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  1. #1
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    Jun. 20, 2009
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    Default Time to pick on the 'old' folks...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV40FQKjxQ&sns=fb

    So much for the notion of "they rode sooo good in the good old days."

    I say

    1)'Seat of the pants'
    2)What good horsies
    3)Wow you can jump 5' when your horse approaches the fence sideways !! (At least with his neck bent sideways...)

    I mean really, if you rode a 2'6" course in front of GM displaying some of these techniques and 'skills' you'd be crucified. Maybe........ literally

    I think we are way too hard on ourselves and it holds too many of us back. The standards of 'perfection' today are a little ridiculous.



  2. #2
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    Apr. 28, 2008
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    I totally agree with your last sentence. I thought they were a little refreshing reminder -- the horses were flowing freely forward to the jumps and the distances were there, not the dressagey frames and then picking with the reins you see so much today. The riders might not be winning any eq finals but they were in the middle and not interfering with the horses. That one horse that had the rail looked to be an awful jumper, I would be scared to ride it over anything that big.



  3. #3
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    Sep. 21, 2000
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    Pawlet, VT US
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV40FQKjxQ&sns=fb

    I mean really, if you rode a 2'6" course in front of GM displaying some of these techniques and 'skills' you'd be crucified. Maybe........ literally

    I think we are way too hard on ourselves and it holds too many of us back. The standards of 'perfection' today are a little ridiculous.
    Kidding, right? You obviously haven't gotten your latest COTH. Let me direct you to the photos on pages 13, 18, 19, 20 ( top) and 24 (top).

    I don't think we are hard enough on ourselves...
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2007
    Location
    California
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    Default

    IMHO Dressag-y frames are required now because of your "course designers". Try to make a turn going at that pace...

    And I think over time riders have found horses clear the jumps much better when balanced and on their haunches... ie - Dressage frame.

    Old folk riders did what was required "then" for the courses they were riding, the horses and the tack.

    Just like cell phones and automobiles of today we are much more sophisticated now.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 21, 2011
    Location
    Austin, TX
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    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    I totally agree with your last sentence. I thought they were a little refreshing reminder -- the horses were flowing freely forward to the jumps and the distances were there, not the dressagey frames and then picking with the reins you see so much today. The riders might not be winning any eq finals but they were in the middle and not interfering with the horses. That one horse that had the rail looked to be an awful jumper, I would be scared to ride it over anything that big.
    I watched McClain Ward give a clinic yesterday, and he said "your position doesn't change whether the jump is 1 ft or 5 ft" (i.e the motion of the horse is what closes your hip angle, not throwing yourself up the horse's neck.) The legs on the riders in the video are rock solid and it looks to me like their upper bodies are matching the efforts that the horses are making.



  6. #6
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    Apr. 28, 2008
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    Our best American riders -- McLain, Beezie, Chris Kappler -- do not use the dressagey frame, they still ride their horses freely forward, while yes, balanced on their haunches which does not mean they need to be in a dressagey frame at all. I have not seen them struggle to turn. My observation anyway.

    I do acknowledge that some warmbloods do seem to go best in the dressagey, slow type of frame, need to because of their stride length and conformation, and many are quite fantastic jumpers bred for that purpose. Of course riders should ride the way that best suits the horse, nevertheless it is not my preference to buy/ride horses that need to go like that. No fun, I like the wind in my helmet hair. :P If I wanted to ride in slow motion I'd get a hunter.



  7. #7
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    Feb. 10, 2008
    Location
    Canada
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    Default

    Yeah, and our polo horses are far from in a dressagey frame and turning is what they do best
    "Disapproval of the way other people run their businesses and treat their horses is the meat and drink of the hunter-jumper industry."
    Working Student Blog
    Current Blog



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    My observation is the indoor arenas the horses are in more of a Dressag-y frame.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSyXaByXqyo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvYHkFUYvxY
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    NorthEast
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    24,509



  10. #10
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Kidding, right? You obviously haven't gotten your latest COTH. Let me direct you to the photos on pages 13, 18, 19, 20 ( top) and 24 (top).

    I don't think we are hard enough on ourselves...

    Yeah, I don't get the OP. 1964 video.... Take a look at old school baseball and football.

    Skills and technique refine, appreciate the riding for what it is.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  11. #11
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    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    Quote Originally Posted by chukkerchild View Post
    Yeah, and our polo horses are far from in a dressagey frame and turning is what they do best
    In a polo field? Not a tight course in an indoor arena.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  12. #12
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    Jun. 20, 2009
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    Hunterdon County NJ
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    MistyBlue,

    I like the photos. The 'old time' photos seem to display a more 'back/safety/eventing' type of seat. This 'crawling/throwing' yourself up the horses neck is a more 'modern.'

    Not everybody has a fancy WB to ride. Plenty of people (plenty, plenty, plenty) are mounted on horses more similar to the ones in the video I posted, than similar to anything any BNTs would be showing and winning on today.

    Yes, the courses are certainly different, but then again not everyone is riding/competing over A circuit courses.

    Should EVERYONE be trained to ride as if they are/will ?

    Would we not have more fun if riders were (gosh, don't say it!) allowed to do 'what works' ? I mean the plethora of 2'6" riders who refuse/cannot move above 2'6" seem to indicate to me that we are NOT producing more able, capable, confident riders these days.

    Their horses are not any better off either. Schooled/longed/draw reined/pro ridden/magnesium supplemented into a stupor.... Especially ironic considering all this pursuit of perfection is supposed to be "for the good of the horse..."

    The pursuit of 'perfection' in the tack has not made better riders, better horses, or better sport. Quite the opposite I think.

    (Just like the pursuit of the 'perfect' restaurant has yielded us (very successful) 'choices' between McD's and the like.)



  13. #13
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    Aug. 5, 2009
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    Default

    Note following hands/independent release vs crest release too.



  14. #14
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    Oct. 15, 2001
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    Mistyblue, your "today" photos are in the hunters. Your "yesteryear" photos are the jumpers. It has been debated to death that there is a different style for the hunters, and why.

    As far as your photos of the kidlets, what is your point? They are kids on ponies, they probably aren't the next coming of Lillie Keenan and Chase Boggio.



  15. #15
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    Oct. 21, 2009
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    Default

    I personally really liked the style of the second rider (I think Pete Robeson)- beautiful releases that are really in harmony with the horse's jump.

    I agree with others that a major reason we see differences in the way our show jumpers go in today's arena is mainly due to our modern courses that are more technical plus the influence of the warmbloods.



  16. #16
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    Feb. 10, 2008
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    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    In a polo field? Not a tight course in an indoor arena.
    Actually the turns a polo horse does when it tight quarters in a melee to get on the ball could arguably be considered tighter than most indoor course turns, and most definitely so when playing indoor. However, of course the style is different and they take off into a run which is different from the packaging needed to jump a big ol' oxer.
    "Disapproval of the way other people run their businesses and treat their horses is the meat and drink of the hunter-jumper industry."
    Working Student Blog
    Current Blog



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2009
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    Default

    I agree with you OP. The second rider I liked, but the others? I must be missing something, because I see legs on the dashboard going to the jumps, the swinging badly. I see tense, stiff, crooked horses running on their forehandand riders jumping up their horses necks. For al the moaning about 'gadgets' these days, I see at least one very tight martingale. What am I supposed to be admiring?

    I'll take the soft relaxed horses sitting on their haunches and riders sitting up with steady legs that may slide back, but don't fling out away from the horse. I'll take a 'dressage-y' frame on a happy horse over a 'forward horse' who is gaping. But I guess that's because of I'm one of the 'bad' generation who likes a soft flwing course over 'really' riding by the skin of my teeth (or by my horses teeth judging by this video.).
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.



  18. #18
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    Apr. 2, 2011
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    Westchester, NY
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    Default

    One thing I noticed about these horses is that they all looked very thoroughbred-y and that the riders were riding with much lighter seats than is popular today.

    I feel like the deep seat and dressage frame of a lot of top level riders comes from how they ride warmbloods. Perhaps in the days where the show jumpers seem to be of much lighter built, a light seat got the best out of the horse?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    I'll take a 'dressage-y' frame on a happy horse over a 'forward horse' who is gaping. But I guess that's because of I'm one of the 'bad' generation who likes a soft flwing course over 'really' riding by the skin of my teeth (or by my horses teeth judging by this video.).
    If I saw much of that, I'd agree with you too! Unfortunately you see few soft, happy Sapphires, and far too many tense, unhappy horses shoved into a dressage frame with serious bitting rigs, from which they can't jump easily, being picked at to the base of fences, with no engine/impulsion, and not really back on their haunches at all just with their noses tucked in. Luckily they are all amazing, bred to jump the moon so they still manage to leap over the fences anyway despite all that. It's just not very pretty to watch.

    I love a soft, flowing course. And don't consider the rides doublesstable posted to be dressagey, once the horses start jumping/finish their warmup circles they both moved freely and beautifully forward even in the tight, tight indoor space.



  20. #20
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    Apr. 2, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    And don't consider the rides doublesstable posted to be dressagey, once the horses start jumping/finish their warmup circles they both moved freely and beautifully forward even in the tight, tight indoor space.
    I completely agree. I did not think they looked dressage-y at all.



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