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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    Gazelle aren't feral, they are wild. Horses, cats, and pigs CAN be feral, but gazelle are wild, like birds, squirrels, and deer.

    Really they aren't???
    "Have a Coke and a Smile"



  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    If you don't give a border collie a job, they will find one. This 'job' [endlessly circling the chicken enclosure] seems harmless [.]
    Absolutely agree with your first statement.

    But I just wanted to post for folks like the owner of the BC with chickens - they should never ever be allowed 24/7 unsupervised access to stock like that. It's another form of obsession and they will, as the poster said, endlessly circle all.the.time, until they do themselves an injury. Or some, like my Violet, would just crouch and stare forever.

    And it louses up the dog's training for stock work, but that's another subject.



  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post

    Sporting breeds, and I'll repeat this for you, are not to kill anything.
    I wish the two labs down the street had read your post. They manged to kill about 10 of our ducks over a couple week period until I was able to catch them in the act. Their owner still denied it was them and would not contain them. The next time I caught them (with one of my ducks dead hanging from the mouth of a very happy dog) I called them over, put them in the garage and called animal control.



  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    A bad hunting dog is a killer. No hunter is owning a dog to kill, what they are hunting.

    I own a dog (Toller) that is a classified - Sporting Group; AKC recognized in 2003. She loves cats they are her buds.

    http://www.akc.org/breeds/nova_scoti...ing_retriever/
    As a non-hunting owner of a Jagdterrier I would disagree. When I researched the breed (I adopted first.....asked questions later) I found out they are bred and owned almost exclusively to kill. Boar, fox, coon, etc etc. If you don't believe me type Jagdterrier into Youtube and see what you find. Pound for pound they are the most ferocious little killing machines in the canine world. So owning one is a challenge.....I can't blame the animal for trying to do what she was bred to do. It is my job however to manage her so neither she nor someone elses pet come to harm.

    Point is that you have a retriever type hunting dog but there are many breeds of hunting dog designed to kill. Doesn't make them bad hunting dogs....they just have different jobs.
    "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."



  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    Really they aren't???
    What's funny? A feral animal is a domesticated species that has become 'wild'. Horses are not natural to USA and are a domesticated species, so they can be feral. Cats are domesticated animals that have ben released/escaped and bred, so they are feral. Same with feral hogs and dogs. Feral animals are still domestic breeds, but have populations independent of people. That's why mustangs aren't protected as wild animals, they aren't.

    Antelope are wild because they were not domesticated. Even if a wild animal is 'tamed' it is not domesticated. Domisticated species are ones who have been bred for many generations to suit the needs/wants of people. Squirels, zebra, lions, etc. are wild.

    These are just the basic idea. You can look up definitions and stuff for specifics
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.



  6. #166
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    A bad hunting dog is a killer. No hunter is owning a dog to kill, what they are hunting.
    you're talking about BIRD dogs. Yes, they point, flush, and fetch, and aren't expected to kill, and often require extensive training to keep them from doing so. But other kinds of hunting dogs- terriers, hounds- are expected to kill the prey. There are other dogs, like pig dogs, that are expected to attack and bite the prey and hold it until the hunter gets there to dispatch it. What do you think fox hounds do when they actually catch one? lick it gently?
    Even herding dogs with inhibited drive will occasionally kill things- my herding dog "fetched" a young goose out of the water and shook it a bit too much. Good for him- geese and wandering cats are both way up there on the destructive should be killed on sight list.
    And what about livestock guarding dogs? people are oh so happy that they killed the coyote.



  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    What's funny? A feral animal is a domesticated species that has become 'wild'. Horses are not natural to USA and are a domesticated species, so they can be feral. Cats are domesticated animals that have ben released/escaped and bred, so they are feral. Same with feral hogs and dogs. Feral animals are still domestic breeds, but have populations independent of people. That's why mustangs aren't protected as wild animals, they aren't.

    Antelope are wild because they were not domesticated. Even if a wild animal is 'tamed' it is not domesticated. Domisticated species are ones who have been bred for many generations to suit the needs/wants of people. Squirels, zebra, lions, etc. are wild.

    These are just the basic idea. You can look up definitions and stuff for specifics
    I could have sworn I saw my neighbor walking his gazelle the other day.



  8. #168
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    And what about livestock guarding dogs? people are oh so happy that they killed the coyote.

    LGDs are amazing dogs. I considered an Anatolian at one point when I was trying to find an alternative to rhodesian ridgebacks. The Anatolian struck me as a ridgie without the chase instinct. Again of course an Anatolian who does his job of protecting the herd well is a menace to his prey (wolves and other predators that would be a threat to the herd), but not a menace to people. No ticking time bomb here either.

    As I said; we forget what dogs are.

    Paula



  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    LGDs are amazing dogs. I considered an Anatolian at one point when I was trying to find an alternative to rhodesian ridgebacks. The Anatolian struck me as a ridgie without the chase instinct. Again of course an Anatolian who does his job of protecting the herd well is a menace to his prey (wolves and other predators that would be a threat to the herd), but not a menace to people. No ticking time bomb here either.
    I don't know. I've always heard that Anatolians are on the sharper end, temperament-wise, where people are concerned. I've never known one personally, though. Where I live most people either have Maremma or Great Pyrenees. But you probably don't want some great hulking hairy animal, do you?

    You know, out west where they have the really big herds, there've been some problematical interactions between LGDs and hikers on public lands.



  10. #170
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    They are sharper and I wasn't sure whether that would suit my personality. It would depend on whether they had discernment to go with that sharpness. For example, my heart dog Milo was a sharper ridgeback. He'd assess you and decide whether you would live or die. Kids could do no wrong, and visitors were given all kinds of lovin'. He never met a dog he didn't like and I used him like an ambassador when I was evaluating ridgies for rescue (he got bit in the face by a Shiba Inu once even ).

    However if you were uninvited or an intruder or he didn't like the cut of your jib you'd pretty much have to be cleared by me - in the yard - before you were allowed to come in My yard is fenced so he won't roam so we wouldn't have the issues you were describing.

    I was looking at Anatolians because I was thinking I could have poultry as was my plan if I had an LGD. Right now that can't happen with ridgies.

    Why Anatolians - they are shorthaired wash and wear kinds of dogs like ridgebacks. I don't want to deal with coat.

    Paula



  11. #171
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    Well, I'm no expert but it seems to me that any animal that descends from animals that had to hunt to survive would have a prey drive hardwired into their brain. It may be deeply buried under layers of domestication but I can't believe it isn't somewhere in there.

    Certainly it will be closer to the surface in some and be selectively bred "further down" (how's that for scientific...) in others but I have a hard time believing it is or should be completely non existent.

    I have known dogs that normally leave cats alone but if something small and furry darts past them it seems to awaken their prey drive.
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  12. #172
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    All dogs have some level of prey drive - the issue I take up with it, is when people use it as an excuse as the why they aren't training their dog to NOT kill anything on sight.
    I have a neighbor.. working stock dog - chases horses. Harasses them constantly in the paddocks. Somehow in the 5 years she's owned this dog has yet to teach her dog NOT to chase even her own damn horses. I taught my working dog in a week when I got her from the pound as a 2 year old- chasing any horse/cat is a big NO.
    she learned that rule damn quick and it didn't take a degree in rocket science to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExJumper View Post
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.



  13. #173
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    I have heard re Anatolians (and most 'independent-operator' breeds like guard dogs) that you MUST be a very firm owner who is absolutely the authority, or they can be dangerous. They're bred to work without supervision, and a poorly-trained one, given their size, can be highly dangerous. It's about training and the dog respecting the owner (which is like any dog, really.)

    I think some posters are confusing "hunting dogs are TRAINED not to kill" with "hunting breeds don't kill." The former is the case. The latter is ridiculous. Dogs are predators, their instinct is to kill. Hunting dogs and retrievers are TRAINED not to kill and dogs who don't train that well are removed from the gene pool. Any dog can kill, be it small animals or something larger. My corgi's a 'herding' breed, but she is absolutely convinced she's actually a badger dog and if she digs deep enough she's going to catch that ground squirrel. Given what she does to her squeaky toys I don't think she wants to keep it as a pet.



  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    What is a kill-happy dog? Do you mean to paint morality on a dog with prey drive? In my mind that's anthropomorphizing. So hunting dogs are kill-happy dogs? Cat's are kill-happy if they are good mousers? Lions are kill-happy?
    Kill-happy is pretty much the same as saying 'ball-happy' about a Lab - a deliberately casual way of describing an animal with a neurotic behavior that does not relates to any mental activity.
    It also sounds less pompous than pontificating about 'prey drive' and 'anthropomorphizing as if you were Konrad Lorenz.



  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    Kill-happy is pretty much the same as saying 'ball-happy' about a Lab - a deliberately casual way of describing an animal with a neurotic behavior that does not relates to any mental activity.
    It also sounds less pompous than pontificating about 'prey drive' and 'anthropomorphizing as if you were Konrad Lorenz.
    A neurotic behavior? How is hunting a neurotic behavior?
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.



  16. #176
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    Well managed hunting dogs are expected to be specific in their choice of game. The fact that they are hunting dogs is no excuse to go around killing small furry animals.

    Our pack of foxhounds are bred, trained and managed for hunting, but woe unto the poor soul who gets caught chasing deer instead of fox or coyote! The fact that they are bred to chase is no excuse. Our local beagles are expected to hunt rabbits, nothing else.

    My English Setter was expected to ignore rabbits and deer (fur) and point birds only. And she better bring those birds to me like she picks them up-biting and shaking bruises the meat-I do the killing, not her.

    And-I looked up the definition of predator. A predator hunts for food, not sport, so I'm not sure dogs deserve the predator pass. It's my horse's instinct to spook, buck and kick. He's been trained not to do those things. The fact that he's a prey animal doesn't give him a pass to spin and bolt when he gets the whim.



  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesson junkie View Post
    And-I looked up the definition of predator. A predator hunts for food, not sport, so I'm not sure dogs deserve the predator pass. It's my horse's instinct to spook, buck and kick. He's been trained not to do those things. The fact that he's a prey animal doesn't give him a pass to spin and bolt when he gets the whim.
    So a horse isn't a prey animal b/c it doesn't get hunted? That makes no sense. If thrown out on the street with no food, most dogs will hunt (whether they are successful is a different story). From an evolutionary, physical, and mental standpoint dogs are predators. They don't have sharp teeth to eat kibble, its to kill and eat meat

    Your horse is trained not to spook. But, if he did spook, would you be shocked and have him PTS? No. You realize its his nature and train him not to do it. However, some horses are going to spook no matter what you do. Those horses should be placed with an owner who can deal with spooking.

    Same with dogs. If a dog kills/hunts, you should recognize its his nature and train him/her. Most can be trained not to kill/hunt (even though their instict tells them to). Some will not overcome that instinct. Those dogs should be placed in situation where hunting isn't an option, either by keeping them at home, or muzzles and leashes
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.



  18. #178
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    Sorry Grey hunter, I see what you're saying. Thanks for pointing out my inconsistency.

    My horse is certainly a prey animal, and he needs training to teach him to trust me, not his instincts. I don't use his instincts as an excuse for bucking, kicking, bolting-or stopping to graze, as he insists he needs to do! I don't see "instinct" as an excuse for a dog's undesirable behavior.

    Many horses indeed meet untimely ends when their behaviorproves them dangerous or unusable. That's our failure as breeders and horsemen. It's our responsibility to train our dogs as well if we want them living with us. It's the price they pay for a place out of the rain and near the fireside.



  19. #179
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    Your horse is trained not to spook. But, if he did spook, would you be shocked and have him PTS? No. You realize its his nature and train him not to do it. However, some horses are going to spook no matter what you do. Those horses should be placed with an owner who can deal with spooking.

    Same with dogs. If a dog kills/hunts, you should recognize its his nature and train him/her. Most can be trained not to kill/hunt (even though their instict tells them to). Some will not overcome that instinct. Those dogs should be placed in situation where hunting isn't an option, either by keeping them at home, or muzzles and leashes
    very well said!
    It's usually people who deny the nature of the animal that end up with out of control animals because they have unrealistic expectations. If you treat Fluffy like a sweet little baby and she kills something or bites the little boy it's your fault. If you treat Fluffy like a dog and train and control her because you realize she has the capacity and desire to kill and bite she probably won't do these things. If you realize Fluffy is beyond your capacity to control and rehome her with someone who can, that is very appropriate.



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