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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
    Location
    Texas
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    4,293

    Default Any JRT experts?

    I was approached at the feed store this weekend by someone who wanted to know if I would consider breeding my male JRT to their female. Both dogs are registered and the female is a working JRT, but I'm not sure that my male is of breeding quality. I thought maybe we might have someone here who knows a bit about JRT conformation and would take a look at my guy and see what you guys thought.

    Even so, I'm not sure I will let him to do it. I have to talk to the people more about what they intend to do with the puppies since I'm not all about breeding puppies just to do it.

    http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...r/pond012a.jpg

    http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q.../Tanner002.jpg

    http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...5-7-09_017.jpg

    http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...er/pond009.jpg

    His dam came from Buttoncap, as did his sire (horse terms, I know), but his sire is FoxWarren bred for as far back as you can see.

    http://www.foxwarren.co.uk/
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Posts
    711

    Default

    These dogs are JRTCA?



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2007
    Posts
    295

    Default

    Why? Has your dog proven himself in the show ring as a champion and to be of breeding quality? Or has he proven himself in the obedience ring or other performance venue to be really worth breeding? What about the female? Have her owners done the same?

    Have you had all health clearance tests appropriate for your breed run and did your dog clear? Do you know what specific tests are necessary prior to breeding a JRT? Has the female also tested clear? What about the parents and grandparents of both dogs? What health problems DO run in either pedigree (including littermates of the two to be bred, their parents' littermates, and other extended relatives) that can't be tested for, such as epilepsy, aggression, and temperament problems?

    No dog is perfect, so do you know whether your dog's conformation faults (as visible in the photos as well as whatever else one would see in person) will be countered by the dam, AND the dam's pedigree? And vice-versa. What is their movement like? Any missing teeth or bite (alignment) issues?

    The kennel name itself doesn't mean much (even excellent kennels and dogs produce some pups that aren't up to par), you need to know the specific dogs behind your dog, their conformation, faults, strong points, temperament, etc. You also want to know that they've proven themselves worth breeding in the show or performance venues and have all needed health clearance.

    You also want to know what both bloodlines have produced in the past in terms of quality, temperament, soundness, and health (as noted, many health problems can't be tested for, but you want to know how often and what health issues may have cropped up in both sides of the pedigree).

    That's a start. If you decide that your dog and the female are both worth breeding, read up on it as much as possible before you agree to it. Use a GOOD contract. And good luck!



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2000
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    7,889

    Default

    Your dog is adorable but there really is no good reason to breed him (except to add to the puppy overpopulation). Bear in mind too, that if you do breed him he may become harder to live with. You'd be much better off politely declining.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,293

    Default

    The dogs are JRTCA registered.

    Curiously- I guess you don't know how the JRTCA registry works. For a JRT to be registered, you have to wait until the dog is 1 yr old, then they have to pass a vet examination to look for inherent issues common to the breed as well as checking of major conformation issues (bite, leg perths, etc).

    My dog was purchased for working dog trials, but I have not had the time to take him. The female does working dog trials and has a good record.

    Like I said, I'm not all about having puppies just to have puppies, but I do love my dog. Everyone that I know said that I would hate a JRT within a week if I bought one, but after doing my own research, I decided that a JRT was still the best option for what I wanted. My dog has a great temperment and is not a cracked out JRT. He is extremely trainable and he's perfect for me.

    I'm not keen on the idea to be honest, but I told the owners of the bitch that I would think about it, which for me means getting feedback and doing a bit of research.

    Thanks!
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
    Posts
    4,741

    Default

    Funny.....I was just thinking this morning about breeding and why I've had 2 litters of my breed.

    I do it because I have nice dogs. I do health checks (for my breed that means vWD/CERF/OFA and/or PennHip), and the next thing I look at is temperament. I don't show, but my dogs are sound and have a temperament that is sound. Just because a dog has won in the ring does not make it breed worthy for me, and just because it has no show record does not mean it ISN'T breed worthy. Showing is nice, but I've seen a lot of dogs who come out of that ring with a shy or sharp temperament that can be managed by knowledgable handlers but hard for your average Joe Q Public to live with.

    If you have 4 puppies, breeder keeps one, sells 3, then very likely 3 of those puppies have to live with non-trainer-owners. So it had better have a sweet, compliant temperament (not to be confused with soft) and be able to get along with other dogs orkids or horses or goats or cats!

    I also breed my own dogs because I want to know where and what has happened to my dogs. The dogs I've fostered come with big holes in the information of what they've had done to them and what they know. Some of them have come to me after having learned some pretty bad things, which limits who they can go to live with. Puppies I have bred and raised learn how to live and trust people.

    If your dog has a stable temperament (which you said he does), he is sound and has had whatever health checks your breed is noted for.....I say breed him.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2006
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    1,650

    Default

    Check out www.littleedenjrt.com for conformation shots of some spectacular dogs.

    I love Jack Russells and have a neutered pet quality male from Little Eden. He's working lineage and a doll.

    Breeding is certainly a personal decision. One thing I really like about Little Eden is that in the purchase contract it strictly states that she will take back any dog that doesn't work out for any reason or if there is a problem with my ownership. Love that. It certainly is in the best interests of the JRTs she sells.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2007
    Location
    NE Georgia
    Posts
    172

    Default

    There are SO many JRTs in shelters and rescues...I would think long and hard before bringing more puppies in to the world...
    But that is just my two cents...
    Oh, and I think your JRT is as cute as a button...



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2007
    Location
    Pen Argyl PA
    Posts
    4,891

    Default

    JRTCA has the right idea of how to register and breed dogs. That said, we bred our JRT's and had 7 live pups and one that dies at birth. with 7 pups, we quickly found out how difficult it is to find GOOD homes and how difficult it is to keep JRT's together in the same house. Not easy.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2000
    Location
    Full time in Delhi, NY!
    Posts
    6,398

    Default

    I've been a JRTCA JRT breeder for 15 years with some success, although I'm not in the same league as Michelle Ward of Little Eden. So while I know the JRTCA registration is the best thing out there, registration just requires meeting general conformation standards, and does not mean you've got a conformation winner. Sorry. All my terriers are registered, but I only show three of them in the conformation ring and even they can get beat.

    The points Curiously raised are all valid and deserve thought. I believe you're doing the right thing in doing research and asking for an evaluation of your dog.

    Over the years I've stood stud dogs and, yes, they were proven in the ring and in the field. I ALWAYS asked a boat load of questions of the bitch owner and demanded they hold themselves to the standards I set for myself, including health tests and taking back puppies for life.

    You are in Texas and it may be harder for the woman who approached you to find a JRTCA breeder, or it may be that she thought it would be cheaper to use your dog. Most JRTCA Breeders know the value of their dogs and do NOT want pick of the litter unless the female is so exceptional or has a pedigree they want to bring into their lines. Typical stud fee for a qualified experienced stud is usually the price of a puppy so you're looking at between $400-800. A lot of casual breeders find coughing up that much money UP FRONT is hard.

    So: did the bitch owner show you her JRTCA club card? Did she offer to show you the bitch's registration cert and pedigree. Did she offer to give you pick of the litter? If you insist on cash up front, will she/has she offered to give you the money from the sale of the 1st pup? Was her name Florence Clark? Has her bitch been CERF and BAER tested and DNA tested for PPL (YES they can do that now). Has your boy? Now everydog has a minimum 7 defective genes and the best you can do is figure out which ones your boy has. That's often a catch 22 because you can't know many of them until he's been bred several times and the offspring's evaluated.

    But, now that you've read this lecture (sorry) here's my answer to your original question.

    I think Tanner is generally correct. It's hard to judge his height. How tall is he and what does he weigh? He seems big boned and kind of hefty. I like his head, ear set, and markings. His neck comes out of his shoulder nicely, but seems maybe just a little short in relation to the size of his body. He looks a bit broad chested and deep chested and I would think he doesn't span easily. He looks like he might be just a bit overweight. His coat looks like a correct smooth coat should. His hind end angulation looks a tad straight, more the Bristish style, than the more angulated look the American judges prefer. In short, I wouldn't mind being seen on the end of his leash, but I don't know if I'd invest in conformation classes unless it was an English judge.

    What does the bitch look like? What qualities in her does the owner want your dog to improve?

    If you have any other specific questions, please feel free to PM me. Finally, remember: Breeding is not for the faint of heart.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,319

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaurieB View Post
    Your dog is adorable but there really is no good reason to breed him (except to add to the puppy overpopulation). Bear in mind too, that if you do breed him he may become harder to live with. You'd be much better off politely declining.
    echo



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    5,521

    Default

    I would say no for the same reason I wouldn't have an entire dog if I wasn't showing him and breeding him. The man is looking for a cheap breed for his bitch and I am surprised you are flattered by a stranger approaching you 'on the street'. The only place he should be looking for a breeding would be through appropriate breeders. Which you aren't. There are enough other reasons mentioned here for you to say no. I would add that the dog should be neutered because all male dogs not showing or having been shown should be neutered.

    Next, if you WERE breeding, which you aren't, you should be vetting each bitch for the quality of the owner's breeding operation - history of litter registrations, quality of kennel and environment, purpose for breeding and plans for the litter. Is he neutering the dogs before they go out to their homes, appropriate innoculations, appropriate investigations of the homes they go to; it would require him to provide you with records of prior litters, so you could look up the other dogs he has bred her to, the quality of breedings he has done. Which would all be a part of your breeding plan.

    Why would you contribute to a serious problem both in the dog and horse world.

    Next we would see "My dog was bred to a puppie mill - help me rescue the puppies - need $$".
    Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,319

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherRound View Post
    I would say no for the same reason I wouldn't have an entire dog if I wasn't showing him and breeding him. The man is looking for a cheap breed for his bitch and I am surprised you are flattered by a stranger approaching you 'on the street'. The only place he should be looking for a breeding would be through appropriate breeders. Which you aren't. There are enough other reasons mentioned here for you to say no. I would add that the dog should be neutered because all male dogs not showing or having been shown should be neutered.

    Next, if you WERE breeding, which you aren't, you should be vetting each bitch for the quality of the owner's breeding operation - history of litter registrations, quality of kennel and environment, purpose for breeding and plans for the litter. Is he neutering the dogs before they go out to their homes, appropriate innoculations, appropriate investigations of the homes they go to; it would require him to provide you with records of prior litters, so you could look up the other dogs he has bred her to, the quality of breedings he has done. Which would all be a part of your breeding plan.

    Why would you contribute to a serious problem both in the dog and horse world.

    Next we would see "My dog was bred to a puppie mill - help me rescue the puppies - need $$".
    here here well said



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,293

    Default

    I'm pretty sure I never said that I was flattered, nor even hinted at such. I think my dog is great because he's the kind of dog *I* wanted, I don't really care if someone else likes him and it doesn't flatter me if they do or upset me if they don't.

    BTW, he is intact because he was purchased to do trials orginally and in order to be registered and do the JRTCA regular classes, he had to be intact. Dogs who do not meet the basic standards are altered and issued a COP instead of full papers, as I understand it. I still plan on doing trials with him, so he needs to be intact. I have no problem lobbing of those little furries otherwise.

    Thanks Krys! That is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. As I said, I'm not keen on the whole puppy thing to start with, but I said I would think about it and do some research and that is what I'm doing. The bitch owner is supposed to be sending me all of her information to look at, but I think I am going to call her and tell her not to worry about it. The only reason I did entertain it at all was because I had been thinking about getting another JRT and the thought of having a pup from my guy as my 2nd was appealing at first.

    I wasn't saying that a dog who passed JRTCA registration standards was a perfect dog...lol. I know my dog isn't perfect and he wasn't purchased to be a conformation ring dog, which is why I was asking opinions. BTW, he is 12.75" and weighs 15ish lbs, depending. He is overweight and I think you are quite right in your analysis of him.

    The bitch owner's last name was Roberts I believe. I left their information on my desk at home, but I think that was their name.

    The owner of the feed store is the one who suggested my dog to the bitch owner. She used to have JRTs and has known my dog for basically all of his 2 years and loves him dearly.

    And no, you wouldn't see me asking for anyone to rescue puppies that I helped bring into the world, but thanks for the snark..lol. You are entertaining if nothing else AR.
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 20, 2010
    Location
    United States of Absurdistan
    Posts
    1,736

    Default

    I havea JRT that has shown, did ok, and raced, did quite well, no GTG he's a muncher/shaker, I thought about breeding him for some time. Then I realized that his temperment is a bit sharp for the average person, and I would have a hard time with letting the pups go. Also, there enough badly breed AKC JRTs that have a problem keeping a home, that one of my dog's pups would have to find the **perfect** home, and that is VERY hard.

    I say if you're on the fence, then the answer is no.

    LBR
    I reject your reality, and substitute my own- Adam Savage

    R.I.P Ron Smith, you'll be greatly missed



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2000
    Location
    Full time in Delhi, NY!
    Posts
    6,398

    Default

    Racetrack, I'd just like to correct one misconception you have about trialing with your boy. It's ONLY for the majority of conformation classes that dogs must be intact. They do have a Spay/Neuter class (designed just to encourage people to do it) and it's very hotly contested! For all of the performance classes (G2G, Super Earth, Ball Toss, Racing, Lure Coursing) it doesn't matter if the dogs have been altered or not.

    If you registered your boy, then you were and hopefully still are a member of the JRTCA. There is a WEALTH of information on the site www.therealjackrussell.com about breeding, questions to ask, health matters and what breeding stock should be tested for.

    If you want another jack, find a female that's in a rescue. Russell Rescue is active in Texas and you sound like a qualified home
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,293

    Default

    Thanks for the correction!

    He is registered (not under Tanner) and I had read over all of the JRTCA stuff a few times, but the last time I did so was probably a year ago (when I had to do his registration stuff).
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2011
    Posts
    8

    Default

    My advice would be to listen to Kryswyn. I know who she is and she is very knowledgable about Jacks. If you want to breed, you want to breed to improve the breed, not dilute it. I basically like your dog, but as Kryswyn mentioned, there are some faults and there a lot of nicer stud dogs out there. However, he is beautifully marked.

    As said before here, there are too many jacks in rescue. So maybe you should check with the owner of the bitch to see how that person plans to sell the puppies. To many Jacks are being sold at horse shows, community fairs, etc. Once those puppies get old enough to breed, the level of quality and personality of dogs can go totally down the tubes. The health tests are so important. Primary Lens Luxation (PLL) is a problem with JRT's and I have seen puppies go blind as early of 5 or 6 months.

    I highly recommend neutering your dog if you choose not to breed him for health reasons among other things. I have a 1-year old dog (my own breeding) that cleaned up in all JRTCA divisions last year as a puppy (including ribbons in conformation, racing and reserve champion in puppy go-to-ground at the JRTCA National Trial). He is extremely well bred, but he is not a Little Eden dog. If he does not do well this year, snip-snip. He is an extremely nice dog and i9t's not worth keeping him intact if he is not a breeding dog.

    I wish you the best of luck with your JRT. I believe your dog has a good home. I hope you plan for his offspring to have the same kind of life.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2010
    Posts
    574

    Default

    Jack Russell's rank right up there with Labs and Goldens as breeds that are horribly over bred and over represented in rescue.

    Do a search on www.petfinder.com for Jack Russell Terrier within a 500 mile radius of the zip code 75214 and you come up with 550 JRT's looking for homes! Granted, these aren't all purebred, but enough of them are to make you think twice about breeding more!

    Russell Rescue of Texas has a Petfinder page. Click HERE: http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/TX937.html to see how many Jacks they have that need homes!

    Honestly, breeding should be left to professionals, folks that know their chosen breed inside out, have worked with a mentor, have shown, know individual bloodlines and what temperaments they produce, genetic issues they have, etc. etc. etc.

    A responsible person would not breed ANY dog that hadn't undergone thorough health testing (and I'm not talking about a check up at your local vet!). For JRT's this would include testing for PLL, PRA, BAER hearing test, hips x-rayed and evaluated by Penn-Hip and/or OFA. And if you don't know what all of these abbreviations stand for, then you really have no business breeding your dog.

    Here is a GREAT article taken directly from the JRTCA website, it address breeding and sums up all the reasons NOT to do it: http://www.therealjackrussell.com/advice/spay.php

    This article also encourages spay/neuter. I wonder why your male isn't neutered? If he was, the idea of breeding him wouldn't even come up!

    The Jack Russell Terrier Research Foundation is working towards a healthier JRT through genetic testing and careful breeding, read more here: http://jrt-research.com/

    If you are really serious about breeding, you will find someone in the JRT breed that is an expert such as a judge, an established, reputable breeder, the President/Vice-President, or someone on the Board of the JRTCA, etc. to evaluate your dog AND the bitch from the standpoint of pedigree, temperament, movement and conformation. Then get their opinion as to how all of these characteristics would come together in a hypothetical mating. Would the mating produce puppies that are improving the breed? What purpose would the mating serve?

    The JRTCA had a Code of Ethics which you should read here: http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/ethics.php

    At a minimum I can't see the reason to breed dogs which haven't passed a temperament test administered by the ATTS http://www.atts.org/ earned an AKC CD (Companion Dog) title (this indicates how trainable a dog is), and some kind of performance title (Agility, Go To Ground, Trailing and Locating, etc.).

    I think if more people approached dog breeding the way they do horse breeding, we wouldn't have such a huge dog overpopulation problem.

    Think about what you look for in a potential stallion, why not have the same expectations of the sire of a litter of puppies?

    Same for a prospective broodmare. Granted, we don't have all of the genetic testing for horses that we have for dogs, but don't you want the mare to have a good pedigree, proven ancestors, some kind of show or performance record, exceptional temperament, etc. etc.?
    Proud Native Texan!
    owned by 3 Cardigan Corgi's + 3 wonderful horses!



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 31, 2004
    Posts
    4,771

    Default

    If anyone wants a free JRT there's a 1 1/2 year old that needs a home in Chester County, PA. The owner wants him gone and will dump him. Some people are nice like that, buying the puppy then they end up in trouble because people love puppies but don't know how to manage the dog. The wrong people get the dog, they don't know how to solve the problem so they dump them. This JRT is about to get dumped if not already dumped. I'd have to search for the email so post here if interested and I'll check it tomorrow.



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