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  1. #1
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    Default Experiments in hoof protection ;-)

    SO I had a 'shoe shaping lesson' with my former farrier.

    Since he was taking the time to teach me about shaping steel shoes, I thought I would take advantage of the entire experience.

    HE trimmed Hugo, actually put Eponas on the front and steels behind.

    I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. He offered me some great trims tips, fantastic shoe placements tips and of course, provided me the basic ideas behind shaping steel.

    No matter if shoes are on your radar or not, I must say I would really encourage anyone trimming his/her own horse to take an afternoon and meet with your local farrier (find a good'un!) and just see what you see.

    If you have the guts, allow him to place a set of shoes on your horse for just one shoeing cycle...just a little experiment.

    Even if you subscribe to a majickal barefoot trim, the experience would be worth the investment-and might even surprise you a little!



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Even if you subscribe to a majickal barefoot trim, the experience would be worth the investment-and might even surprise you a little!
    If you want to 'recrute' them, you shouldn't be laughing at them or be condescending. Not a good strategy... Your OP was perfect and interresting until then...my 2cents.

    On the topic; the more you have access to, the more you can see about as much as possible techniques, the better are the chances you'll have an open mind, more ideas, become better in general and know what you are talking about!
    Shoes or no shoes is not the question. Having a healthy functional horse is.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    If you want to 'recrute' them, you shouldn't be laughing at them or be condescending. Not a good strategy... Your OP was perfect and interresting until then...my 2cents.

    While I appreciate your feeback, there are a few things you may need to know.

    For one, I am not trying to recruit anyone. I was one of 'them' for about 7 years.

    Two, that sentence was true and not meant to be condescending. *I* was actually pleasantly surprised at the experience. *I* understand the mentality of the barefooter and know most (not all) would come in assuming they could learn nothing from a 'farrier.'

    Well in spite of my fairly well rounded barefoot education, I learned some new things-from a professional outside 'the fold.'

    So contrary to your conclusion, I have no strategy other than sharing in a case a self trimmer was on the edge, considering going in a different direction. I have been there and it was nice when someone on this forum encouraged me to consider options before reaching conclusions.

    Just payin' it forward.



  4. #4
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    Default

    But not everyone knows your background!
    I didn't!
    Your post was good till that point...but now, with some clarifications it is even more interresting!
    Didn't meant to be snarky either



  5. #5
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    Default

    No problem!

    Glad you now see through the 'snark'



  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Well in spite of my fairly well rounded barefoot education,....
    Don't you mean, "tunnel visioned"?
    I have been there and it was nice when someone on this forum encouraged me to consider options before reaching conclusions.
    Who was that cad? Out him and I'll thrash him within an inch of his life.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Don't you mean, "tunnel visioned"?

    [But when I got to the end of the tunnel, there was LIGHT! ]

    Who was that cad? Out him and I'll thrash him within an inch of his life.
    The cad's name shall forever remain a secret in my heart.

    Just finished our first test ride-simply BLOWN away at what happens when you can get the footprint correct on the horse.

    The trim the farrier did was almost identical to what I would do. He did offer some excellent 'finessing tips' but the difference was not enough to argue "it was the trim"

    The difference was being able to get his 'footprint' correct to stabilize his bony column.

    Being able to place the shoe in a place where his foot was 'lacking' has provided him support and stability like I have never felt.

    Granted, farriers will argue they already knew this-but it was such a high feeling the difference for the first time on a horse that has been bare his entire life.

    Again, I am sharing for those that may be torn between the two worlds....like I was.

    Do I love steel shoes? Not really. I still cringe at the idea.

    I still dream of perfect bare hooves.

    BUT I totally love how easy things were for my horse that were challenging before.

    I love the feeling of power that came from having his heels correctly placed (from the shoe-could not have not it with a trim alone).

    This horse was sound bare. He was not limping or tender.

    Now he is powerful and athletic feeling.

    Great fun. Great experiment. The experience was a more valuable education than any classroom, book or dvd or even arguments on a forum.

    This is something every owner should FEEL and OBSERVE then decide.



  8. #8
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    Default

    I hope you accept these in the spirit in which they are intended.

    http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumb...old-You-So.jpg

    Imagine she's looking at and singing to, a <gasp> horseshoe and the shoe is singing the refrain.

    ROTFLMAO!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovh-LW0YBQU



  9. #9
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    Default

    So much fun! I spent the morning with a farrier who seems to have no agenda at all about barefoot or shoes since he fixed one end with shoes and fixed the other end by taking them off.

    So refreshing, to work with people with a ton of experience using all the possible tools for the better of the horse.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  10. #10
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    OK Rick, first one was funny.

    OUCH to the second one!

    In about 10 days he is coming back to help me with Milo.

    So yes EqT-QUITE fun!

    Very very refreshing.



  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    The difference was being able to get his 'footprint' correct to stabilize his bony column.
    Dang, and all this time I thought I was just "making the foot numb" with a shoe so the horse could go about his job without worrying about where to put his feet.



  12. #12

    Default

    Congrats! Too bad we have to waste so much time fending of the drama instead of just talking about soundness and fun.
    Scott Gregory
    (513) 678-9877
    www.farrierservices.net



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Being able to place the shoe in a place where his foot was 'lacking' has provided him support and stability like I have never felt.
    It's always such a pleasure to see the lights come on for someone.

    Yes, a little bit of help can make all the difference in the world to an imperfect horse, and frankly, there are a lot of imperfect horses out there.

    Again, I am sharing for those that may be torn between the two worlds....like I was.
    It is sad that "two worlds" even exists. It's not supposed to be that way. The "debate" is frustratingly artificial and always has been.

    A broom salesman will try to sell you a broom. A full service provider will offer you a choice of a broom, vacuum cleaner or whatever else best meets your needs. That won't sit well with the person who only has a broom to offer and they'll make every effort to convince you that a broom is all anyone ever needs.

    Do I love steel shoes? Not really. I still cringe at the idea.
    It's never been about what we love, like or prefer. It's always been about what is best for the horse and the intended use of the animal. This goes to the heart of the "debate".

    I still dream of perfect bare hooves.
    Chicken teeth.

    BUT I totally love how easy things were for my horse that were challenging before.
    Imagine how pleased the horse must be. And the "transition period" was only the time it took to complete the work... not 12 months of discomfort, tea-tree oil, walking over pea gravel and shaking a dead chicken at your horse while chanting Hare-Krishna. Nice, huh?

    I love the feeling of power that came from having his heels correctly placed (from the shoe-could not have not it with a trim alone).
    And the lesson learned? A trim can only remove material. It can never add mass or increase surface area. You can cut a board as many times as you want but... it will never get any longer.

    This horse was sound bare. He was not limping or tender. Now he is powerful and athletic feeling.
    Great observation! Sometimes our expectations exceed generally sound. Sometimes the goals include enhanced performance.

    Great fun. Great experiment. The experience was a more valuable education than any classroom, book or dvd or even arguments on a forum.
    There are few better teachers than real world experience. Ever notice that most "get rich quick" authors either aren't rich or, if they are, it's by virtue of selling their book?

    This is something every owner should FEEL and OBSERVE then decide.
    Many do, but sadly, only after the horse has suffered various discomforts or short comings for too long before the professional farrier is finally engaged to help.

    Great story and thanks for sharing.

    Cheers,
    Mark



  14. #14
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    Default

    Thank you Mark for commenting and 'supporting' my comments with positive responses.

    You made a couple of comments that i want to repeat because they hit home for me:

    "Sometimes our expectations exceed generally sound. Sometimes the goals include enhanced performance."

    "A trim can only remove material. It can never add mass or increase surface area."

    I have to go to the barn to give hay, but when I come back, I would love to take this discussion a little farther-especially since it has some feedback from farriers.

    As I have mentioned, my former farrier is returning in two weeks to 'tutor' me on the best way to help my horse Milo.

    I know he will have wonderful advice-however in the meantime I would like to ask some questions so I can do some 'studying' before our time together-for one, so I don't badger him endlessly for questions-and two, so I can have a few days to absorb the ideas since this idea of using shoes to improve perfections is not a part of my experience in hoof care.

    Milo has a pretty long list of challenges and I can't wrap my head around how each of these can be properly addressed without possibly negatively impacting the other issues.

    Will post my questions shortly and am looking forward to an educational discussion.

    Thanks again to the farriers that have come along on this thread so far...like I said, this is a big world that just opened up and I, personally, am looking forward to learning and developing the skills needed so I can continue to care for my horses.



  15. #15
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    OK-hypothetically (because it always depends but let's just play textbook here)

    The horse is as follows:

    17.1h
    11yo
    about 1500-1600 lbs. Not fat just that BIG

    Per xrays he has very very thin soles

    Depending on whom you ask, his films show some pedal-o

    Additionally he is

    over at the knee-left worse than right

    Toes in, left worse than right

    His hooves are offset from his pasterns-in other words, his pastern does not enter his hoof capsule centered rather to the lateral side, again left worse than right

    He paddles-RIGHT worse than left (oddly enough)

    As a result he grows wicked medial flares, straight lateral wall, lateral heel will curl under, left worse than right

    I now understand what I was taught regarding A/P placement of the shoe-does this change or do you do anything differently with a buck knee/over at the knee horse? From what I see, even if you get the A/P placement 'correct' it still won't line him up properly to 'correct' or 'offset' those buck knees? Or is there some kind of shoe that helps this?

    Heels are forward of the widest part of the frog, again left worse than right...but if you bring them back they are way too low. The good news is I now understand how a properly placed shoe addresses this imbalance.

    Thin soles-I have been using Eponas-but I assume one would also suggest steel plus pour in pads or something of the sort.

    So on to the toe in, crooked legs...what in the heck do you do?

    He does not really have stretching on the medial side (just a pinch between quarters and heels)...he obviously needs a platform on that medial side or he falls over.

    I know normally you would remove the flare and/or set the shoe 'tight' on the flared side and full on the straight side...but does this muck up one of the other issues?

    It seems sort of silly to lop off a non-stretching white line flare just to put a shoe back there.

    It seems if you place a shoe to be correctly on his foot-to set up a proper foot print for his foot, you leave his leg imbalance dangling in the breeze-but if you set up things for his legs, you leave his feet dangling in the breeze?

    Do you address one or the other? Split the difference-which leaves each half ass handled? Trial and error and when you hit comfort just keep it there?

    Are there certain kinds of shoes that help with these issues more than others?

    Also, a wee bit of stretching at the toe but if you back them up any more he looks like he will tip over on his nose!

    So, there is the exam question....

    How do you handle?

    As I mentioned, I am certain the farrier will handle this properly-I just want a little study time to catch up to the discussion when we have it so *I* am not dangling in the breeze


    And for the record, yes he is a mess-bought him as a young horse and didn't realize we would end up HERE.

    I am not looking for challenging any world class records-I am looking for a setup to allow him sufficient comfort to be worked enough to keep his weight down.

    He is not 'crippled lame' (though reading the list he sounds like he should be!) and has been doing very well in Eponas on all 4-I am just now ready to help him more if another system would be better. He is actually 'sound' in this setup but I am always looking for options-if better, I will try, if not, will stick with what I have.

    Interestingly enough, when given the option to do anything on Hugo (the horse already shod), the farrier really like the Eponas on front for him-the size correct for him had nail holes all line up and it worked beautifully.

    So looking forward to thought and hopefully reasoning behind the thoughts for a great educational discussion
    Last edited by LMH; Apr. 3, 2011 at 02:58 PM.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    about 1500-1600 lbs. Not fat just that BIG

    Per xrays he has very very thin soles

    Depending on whom you ask, his films show some pedal-o

    Additionally he is

    over at the knee-left worse than right

    Toes in, left worse than right

    His hooves are offset from his pasterns-in other words, his pastern does not enter his hoof capsule centered rather to the lateral side, again left worse than right

    He paddles-RIGHT worse than left (oddly enough)

    As a result he grows wicked medial flares, straight lateral wall, lateral heel will curl under, left worse than right

    I now understand what I was taught regarding A/P placement of the shoe-does this change or do you do anything differently with a buck knee/over at the knee horse?
    Photos?

    Regardless, I trim each foot according to its individual needs/dictates.
    From what I see, even if you get the A/P placement 'correct' it still won't line him up properly to 'correct' or 'offset' those buck knees?
    He's eleven years old. Even if you could, why would you want to try and correct a conformational issuenow?
    Or is there some kind of shoe that helps this?
    It depends. That said, s shoe that has correct breakover and support built in to it.
    Heels are forward of the widest part of the frog, again left worse than right...but if you bring them back they are way too low.
    Are they? you sure? Regardless, when addressing the rear of the hoof, you should also be addressing the front of the hoof and in that way, more correctly balancing the hoof.
    The good news is I now understand how a properly placed shoe addresses this imbalance.
    How?
    Thin soles-I have been using Eponas-but I assume one would also suggest steel plus pour in pads or something of the sort.
    Indeed. and that includes amending a rim pad cut to no more than 2/3 the width of the branch of the shoe and then a pour in pad or the equivalent.
    So on to the toe in, crooked legs...what in the heck do you do?
    As noted, other than trimming to the dictates of the limb, why would you do anything else?
    He does not really have stretching on the medial side (just a pinch between quarters and heels)...he obviously needs a platform on that medial side or he falls over.
    Whin the foot is in balance, why would he fall over?
    I know normally you would remove the flare and/or set the shoe 'tight' on the flared side and full on the straight side...
    I do hereby officially invoke Rick's First Law of Equidom...
    ......but does this muck up one of the other issues?
    See above...
    It seems sort of silly to lop off a non-stretching white line flare just to put a shoe back there.
    See RFLE and, though you may not be able to see it, I'll bet a dollar against a donut hole that there is indeed some laminar disinterdigitation occurring.
    It seems if you place a shoe to be correctly on his foot-to set up a proper foot print for his foot, you leave his leg imbalance dangling in the breeze
    What leg imbalance? His leg is what it is and at his age he's learned to deal with it.
    -but if you set up things for his legs, you leave his feet dangling in the breeze?
    Counselor, thats an interesting hypothesis, but that is all that it is and it assumes facts not in evidence.
    Do you address one or the other?
    By perfecting the trim and the appliance attachment, you do both.
    Trial and error and when you hit comfort just keep it there?
    That's "Tweaking", not "trial and error" and is something that will be an on going process because what works this time may not work as well forever.
    Are there certain kinds of shoes that help with these issues more than others?
    Absolutely! Ones that are correctly fabricated and applied..........
    Also, a wee bit of stretching at the toe but if you back them up any more he looks like he will tip over on his nose!
    What looks like will happen and what will actually happen are often two different things. IOW, It Depends.

    So, there is the exam question....
    How do you handle?
    Prayer. Lots and lots of prayer.
    As I mentioned, I am certain the farrier will handle this properly-I just want a little study time to catch up to the discussion when we have it so *I* am not dangling in the breeze
    That'll only happen if you're out of balance...................
    I am looking for a setup to allow him sufficient comfort to be worked enough to keep his weight down.
    Dang! I sure glad you'e not in charge of my feeding and exercise schedule.
    Last edited by Rick Burten; Apr. 3, 2011 at 07:12 PM. Reason: sometimer's disease



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Gough View Post
    And the lesson learned? A trim can only remove material. It can never add mass or increase surface area.
    Philosophically(and, empirically) I disagree with the 'increase surface area' part of that statement. For example, if the heels run forward/underrun/whatever and you trim them such that they are now either correctly or more correctly located, have you not increased the surface area?



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Photos?

    [ not a chance-I know the limits of boundaries on THIS forum!]

    Regardless, I trim each foot according to its individual needs/dictates.

    He's eleven years old. Even if you could, why would you want to try and correct a conformational issuenow?

    [Sorry if it sounded like this-I don't mean correct his issues-I mean shoe style and placement to 'support' his shortcomings. Does that make more sense?]


    Are they? you sure? Regardless, when addressing the rear of the hoof, you should also be addressing the front of the hoof and in that way, more correctly balancing the hoof.

    [Indeed-am I sure bringing his heels back would over lower them-on this horse, yes I am-but will stand corrected if the farrier show me otherwise.]

    How?

    [How does a properly placed shoe correct the imbalance of underrun heels? From what I learned (and now obesrved) the back of the shoe can extend the heel-or give a 'fake' heel where none exists.]


    As noted, other than trimming to the dictates of the limb, why would you do anything else?

    [Like I said, I am not talking about slicing to get a straight leg on a crooked horse-just talking about tweaking to help his flight pattern]



    See RFLE and, though you may not be able to see it, I'll bet a dollar against a donut hole that there is indeed some laminar disinterdigitation occurring.

    [I have no doubt-the stretching at the toe is very recent-basically since spring grass-so we can add that to our fun and growing list of issues. ]

    What leg imbalance? His leg is what it is and at his age he's learned to deal with it.

    [Again, sorry if the devil is in the details and I tend to sweep with a broad broom...I am simply talking about tweaking-like I see farriers leave a shoe full on the straighter wall]





    Prayer. Lots and lots of prayer.



    I believe that final comment is the solution!



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Philosophically(and, empirically) I disagree with the 'increase surface area' part of that statement. For example, if the heels run forward/underrun/whatever and you trim them such that they are now either correctly or more correctly located, have you not increased the surface area?
    of course you have-but at what cost if doing so lowers the heels too far?

    Then what do you do? I guess that is the reason for wedges? bring em back and stand em up?



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Philosophically(and, empirically) I disagree with the 'increase surface area' part of that statement. For example, if the heels run forward/underrun/whatever and you trim them such that they are now either correctly or more correctly located, have you not increased the surface area?
    Rick, I knew after I posted that comment that someone would (and should!) challenge it.

    Permit me the opportunity to "qualify" the statement for more accuracy. I should have written....

    "A trim can only remove material. It can never add mass or increase surface area beyond the perimeter of the correctly trimmed hoof."

    Better?

    Cheers,
    Mark



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