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  1. #1
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    May. 4, 2008
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    Default Is this tree broken?

    I ordered this saddle - I'm a little irritated because it was advertised as a PJ Delgrange. It's a Delgrange, but not a PJ. They said it was a partition/euro pro. Doesn't PJ always have the "PJ" logo above the Delgrange logo? That part isn't on here.

    Also, there is a problem with the underside of the saddle I have never seen before. The support for the flaps looks broken to me, crushed over. Can you tell me what you think?

    http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._8290228_n.jpg

    I got it off ebay, and this was definitely not described in the auction, along with a bunch of heavy spider cracking on the twist. Do you think I could protest the item as significantly not as described?
    Sorry to see xtranormal is gone
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  2. #2
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    May. 4, 2008
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    Default

    Sorry to see xtranormal is gone
    For funnies, search youtube for horseyninjawarrior!

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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2001
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    New York, NY
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    Default

    I don't know—looking at the photo you've posted, every saddle I've ever owned would do that when held that way. The area where the crease is looks like it's where the tree meets the padding.

    Looking at the auction itself, I don't think you have anything to protest. The seller clearly said, "This saddle looks like the Partition/PJ Pro model and originally retailed up to $4000 new." Looks. As in, not sure if it is, but it looks like it. Also, looking at the photo of this Partition (http://www.horseclicks.com/saddles/8mshm1/), it doesn't have the PJ logo either. If the saddle meets your needs otherwise, I don't see why something so trivial would bother you.



  4. #4
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    May. 4, 2008
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    Default

    I was really majorly concerned about the tree. I know absolutely nothing about trees on saddles, and I'd never seen one so definitively broken over at those spots before. So is the tree just up under the center of the saddle?

    I guess I interpreted the description phrasing to be that she was trying to speculate WHICH model of PJ it is, not whether or not it really is a PJ at all. I should have double checked with her before I paid for it.

    Thanks for pointing out another way to read the phrasing. Should have done better homework! I'm not bothered if it fits my needs, but when I got it from UPS and there was all this cracking on the seat, no PJ logo, and panels underneath that are so visibly worn I panicked a little.
    Sorry to see xtranormal is gone
    For funnies, search youtube for horseyninjawarrior!

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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2007
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    285

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    I don't know—looking at the photo you've posted, every saddle I've ever owned would do that when held that way. The area where the crease is looks like it's where the tree meets the padding. i
    Ditto this, the tree looks fine. They even gave you a SN for the saddle, so I doubt they were trying to pull one over on you. If you're curious as to the saddle's exact details (like the different version of the logo), I'd contact the company and give them the SN.

    If you hate it so much you want to give it away, I'd be happy to take it off your hands - looks very nice!
    Work - feed - ride - shovel poop - repeat.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2003
    Location
    CA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alittlegray View Post
    I ordered this saddle - I'm a little irritated because it was advertised as a PJ Delgrange. It's a Delgrange, but not a PJ. They said it was a partition/euro pro. Doesn't PJ always have the "PJ" logo above the Delgrange logo? That part isn't on here.
    ?
    The Partition is the Bruno Delgrange version of the PJ Pro. The Bruno Delgrange saddles do not have a PJ above the Delgrange logo and are the semi-custom saddles.

    Here is the Bruno Delgrange website on the Partition page: http://www.selledelgrange.com/selles...duit.php5?id=1

    After looking at the auction, they clearly list it as a Bruno Delgrange. I'm guessing they added the PJ to get more traffic as many people are more familiar with the PJ Delgranges.

    The creasing you are showing is characteristic of an older saddle and is where the panel meets the tree. I don't think it's anything to worry about.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2006
    Location
    WNY
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    Default

    The tree doesn't go all the way down into the panels. The points of the tree end a few inches below the stirrup bars. Below that, the panels are leather and wool/foam, so it's perfectly normal for them to bend.



  8. #8
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    Feb. 7, 2005
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    Lancaster, PA
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    Default

    That looks perfectly normal to me. To check the tree, grab the pommel in one hand and the cantle in the other and gently try to flex them toward each other and apart. If you see wrinkles or creases in the seat then, you might have a problem. But the creases you are seeing there on the flaps are just normal wear.



  9. #9
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    Jun. 30, 2009
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    Default

    This auction is for a used 2004 Bruno Delgrange PJ Close Contact jumping saddle
    you might contact the company & confirm whether it is in fact a PJ - if not, then you'd clearly be able to consider the saddle not as described etc

    In excellent condition, with no major damages or stains.
    A saddle with the damage shown in your photo (personally have never seen that in an "excellent" condition used saddle) & the heavy spider cracking on the twist would constitute enough visible use that no reputable saddle shop would describe the condition of this saddle as "excellent", so you should have grounds for return on that basis as well.

    If you paid the $1825 bid, the seller got a good deal, you not so much ...

    Compare the saddle you received with this one which is 3 yrs younger & also listed in "excellent condition".

    Unfortunately this is the downside of ebay - had you asked for more photos of the saddle?
    You might have a saddler do an assessment/appraisal before attempting a return.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2010
    Posts
    159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by furlong47 View Post
    To check the tree, grab the pommel in one hand and the cantle in the other and gently try to flex them toward each other and apart. If you see wrinkles or creases in the seat then, you might have a problem. But the creases you are seeing there on the flaps are just normal wear.
    This.



  11. #11
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    Feb. 18, 2001
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    New York, NY
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alto View Post
    A saddle with the damage shown in your photo (personally have never seen that in an "excellent" condition used saddle) & the heavy spider cracking on the twist would constitute enough visible use that no reputable saddle shop would describe the condition of this saddle as "excellent", so you should have grounds for return on that basis as well.
    Damage? That's not damage—it's called soft leather being pliable. "Excellent condition" for a saddle, to me, means completely rideable with no major cosmetic defects. If the OP wanted a new saddle, she should've bought one.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 23, 2000
    Location
    Virginia
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    Default

    If you're anywhere near NoVA and you're really that concerned, run it up to Journeyman and have them take a look at it.

    I might be a bit annoyed if they didn't disclose cracking, though. When I sold my butet I made it abundently clear that it was OLD and took careful photos of each imperfection - I really didn't want to have someone be disappointed and have to take the saddle back.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 25, 2003
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    Boston Area
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    Default

    These days eBay is set up so that the buyers have all the power so if you want to return it, you can probably go through eBay's resolution center. If I were the seller, though, I'd be annoyed as their auction clearly says final sale.

    What you've shown (as others said) does not indicate a broken tree (here's an image of a saddle tree to give you a sense for what gives the saddle its structure. http://equineink.files.wordpress.com...tubbentree.jpg)

    As for the cracking? Personally, I wouldn't have paid so much for a saddle with only one photo. Different people have different expectations. When I sell a saddle on eBay I usually take photos of every surface so that people know what they are getting.

    Just for future reference, I'd also be leery of someone with only 5 feedback ratings who has never sold a saddle before . . . at least you got a Delgrange!
    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
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  14. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Damage? That's not damage—it's called soft leather being pliable. "Excellent condition" for a saddle, to me, means completely rideable with no major cosmetic defects. If the OP wanted a new saddle, she should've bought one.
    you need to spend more time on used saddle sites - anything beyond a few rubs & the saddle drops from "excellent" to "very good", add in some significant spider web cracking on the pommel & you'll be lucky to get a "good" rating ...

    Another 04 Delgrange that sold for not much more than the OP's - hardly a new saddle but one that's been a little better used.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    14,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alittlegray View Post
    I ordered this saddle - I'm a little irritated because it was advertised as a PJ Delgrange. It's a Delgrange, but not a PJ. They said it was a partition/euro pro. Doesn't PJ always have the "PJ" logo above the Delgrange logo? That part isn't on here.

    Also, there is a problem with the underside of the saddle I have never seen before. The support for the flaps looks broken to me, crushed over. Can you tell me what you think?

    http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._8290228_n.jpg

    I got it off ebay, and this was definitely not described in the auction, along with a bunch of heavy spider cracking on the twist. Do you think I could protest the item as significantly not as described?
    Quote Originally Posted by alto View Post
    you might contact the company & confirm whether it is in fact a PJ - if not, then you'd clearly be able to consider the saddle not as described etc


    A saddle with the damage shown in your photo (personally have never seen that in an "excellent" condition used saddle) & the heavy spider cracking on the twist would constitute enough visible use that no reputable saddle shop would describe the condition of this saddle as "excellent", so you should have grounds for return on that basis as well.

    If you paid the $1825 bid, the seller got a good deal, you not so much ...

    Compare the saddle you received with this one which is 3 yrs younger & also listed in "excellent condition".

    Unfortunately this is the downside of ebay - had you asked for more photos of the saddle?
    You might have a saddler do an assessment/appraisal before attempting a return.
    I think the deal was fair-- the price paid for a used Partition complete with the spider cracks that happens to these saddles all the time.

    The Partition is also hard to find in North America. They are also better advertised now then they used to be. People will want them. If the saddle works for you, you might not be sitting on a money-loser.

    The rest of it? You don't know where the points of the tree end? You don't know the details of PJ and DelGrange relationship? You paid close to $2K for a saddle based on one picture? I also think most saddles would look "crushed" if held in the position you are. I can't tell how hard you are pushing, you know?

    The seller, on the other hand, provided you with a serial number and guess as to what the saddle was and then priced it within the ballpark of what these sell for used?

    I'd take a breath before I tried to break this deal on a technicality, even if Ebay gives buyers the right to do that. You didn't do badly. Save the deal-breaking for the buyers that truly get ripped off by Ebay sellers.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  16. #16
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    May. 4, 2008
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    Virginia
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    Default

    http://http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.ne...0_610959_n.jpg

    This is the cracking on the twist. One goes almost all the way through.

    I appreciate the feedback, and don't want to start a coth argument over this. I'm not taking any action at this point until I see what dd's trainer thinks. I was operating under the idea that this was a pj/delgrange in excellent condition. Now I see it is a delgrange partition in what I would consider maybe good condition. Some slight disappointment, doesn't mean it will be a bomb for me. Just wanted to know what others thought.

    ETA - the original auction had more pictures, but none directly looking down at the twist and of course the cracking wasn't mentioned. I didn't spend almost 2k on a saddle with just one photo, thus my surprise to find so much that wasn't mentioned.
    Sorry to see xtranormal is gone
    For funnies, search youtube for horseyninjawarrior!

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  17. #17
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    Aug. 2, 2004
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    Default

    Your link isn't working for me.
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  18. #18
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    Sep. 7, 2006
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    Default

    Fixed?



  19. #19
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    Yep/ How'd you do that?
    Aisha, my heart from 03/06/1986 to 08/22/2008.

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  20. #20
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    Apr. 17, 2008
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    Default

    The original link had two http://http://. Take one off and it works.
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