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  1. #1
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    Question This is probably a dumb question but.....

    What is the difference between say a beginner novice horse and beginner novice rider? I looked around the USEA site and briefly checked through the rules and nothing jumped out at me so thought the all powerful eventing CoTHers would know the answer.

    Thanks
    Yogurt - If you're so cultured, how come I never see you at the opera? Steven Colbert



  2. #2
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    Default

    upper-level riders can ride a horse that's new to eventing competition in the "BNH" division, while a a new-to-eventing rider could be riding a solid novice or training level horse in the "BNR" division...
    that is how I understand it. I'm sure there are specific rules as to how each may be qualified, determined etc...
    proud momma of an evil grey QH/Arab who can jump the moon... and he stole my heart



  3. #3
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    I think EHB's explanation is sufficient. Basically, the divisions have different "greenies." BNR will have riders that are green at that level and BNH will have horses that are green at that level. Therefore, in BNR the rider could be on a packer but doing their first BN event and in BNH a pro could be riding a horse doing their first BN.

    To determine if you or your horse qualifies for BNR or BNH at a recognized event you would have to consult Appendix 3 of the Rule Book (available on the USEA website) which states:

    4.5 RIDER (R) - Levels restricted by rider are limited to those competitors who have not completed more than two Horse Trials at the next highest level or higher in the previous 24 months. e.g. Training Rider - the competitor may not have completed more than two Horse Trials at the Preliminary Level or higher in the previous 24 months.

    4.6 HORSE (H) - Open to competitors of any age, horse may not have completed an event above the level, e.g. a Novice Horse may not have completed an event at Training level or above, a Training Horse may not have completed an event at the Preliminary level or above, etc.


    Hope that helps.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" Immanuel Kant



  4. #4
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    Just a clarification.....the riders and horess in those divisons may not be green. They may be very well established at that level. Just with the horse it will not have competed at a level above....and with the rider, they will not have competed at a two HTs a level above in the last two years.


    So in other words...technically, a horse or rider could have been competing and winning in BNH/BNR for the past 10 years. And a rider in BNR could have ridden around Rolex 3 years ago.


    It also isn't unusual for horse/rider combo to qualify for both divisions and have a bit of a choice. And generally speaking...the classes will be like the other posters have described. More often, the horse divisions have more experienced riders on less experienced horses....and the rider divisions will have more less experienced riders (horses will be a mixed bag). Because I've been riding for a while...I generally pick the horse divisions even though I might qualify for a rider division. IME--the horse divisions are typically a bit more competitive but not always.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  5. #5
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    The rule book is your friend.

    Appendix 3 section 4
    4.5 RIDER (R) - Levels restricted by rider are limited to those competitors who have not
    completed more than two Horse Trials at the next highest level or higher in the previous
    24 months. e.g. Training Rider - the competitor may not have completed more than two
    Horse Trials at the Preliminary Level or higher in the previous 24 months.

    4.6 HORSE (H) - Open to competitors of any age, horse may not have completed an event
    above the level, e.g. a Novice Horse may not have completed an event at Training level
    or above, a Training Horse may not have completed an event at the Preliminary level or
    above, etc.
    So "Beginner Novice Horse" has no restrictions on the rider ( the rider could have ridden in the WEG last year). But the horse must have never completed a Novice Horse Trial (ever).

    Conversely, "Beginner Novice Rider" has no restrictions on the horse (the horse could have been ridden in the WEG last year). But the rider must not have completed TWO Novice (or above) HT in the last 24 months.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  6. #6
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    Thanks for all the responses. Got it down now.
    Yogurt - If you're so cultured, how come I never see you at the opera? Steven Colbert



  7. #7
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    Why can't we have a BNR riding BNH division? I think that would be perfect!!!



  8. #8
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    Just be warned it is going to change next year.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  9. #9
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    Janet: care to give us a hint as to what is going to change?



  10. #10
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    The full text is here
    http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/RuleBoo...44c5d7c258.pdf

    In summary, it changes to
    TWO levels up and FIVE years for Rider
    TWO levels up, ever, for Horse.

    A rider will be eligible for Beginner Novice Rider unless he/she has completed at TRAINING (or above) in the last 5 years

    A horse will continue to be eligible for Beginner Novice Horse until it completes at TRAINING (or above).
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  11. #11
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    So in other words...technically, a horse or rider could have been competing and winning in BNH/BNR for the past 10 years.
    One of my biggest pet peeves. Ride in the Open, for pity's sake, and let the actual newcomers have a crack at the nice ribbons.
    Click here before you buy.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    One of my biggest pet peeves. Ride in the Open, for pity's sake, and let the actual newcomers have a crack at the nice ribbons.
    I beg to differ.

    I was raised to believe the USING THE RULES, as they are written and intended, to your advantage is PART OF competing. (This was motorcycle racing, but the principle is universal.)

    Not finding obscure loopholes, not bending the meaning of words. But using the clearly written intention to your advantage when possible.

    That being said, I rarely put "Rider" as a high preference when it is a level I am experienced at, even if I an eligible for Rider. But I also do not feel that there is a significant advantage to going in the Rider division- there are a lot of packer horses in there.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  13. #13
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    May. 17, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Just a clarification.....the riders and horess in those divisons may not be green. They may be very well established at that level. Just with the horse it will not have competed at a level above....and with the rider, they will not have competed at a two HTs a level above in the last two years.


    So in other words...technically, a horse or rider could have been competing and winning in BNH/BNR for the past 10 years. And a rider in BNR could have ridden around Rolex 3 years ago.


    It also isn't unusual for horse/rider combo to qualify for both divisions and have a bit of a choice. And generally speaking...the classes will be like the other posters have described. More often, the horse divisions have more experienced riders on less experienced horses....and the rider divisions will have more less experienced riders (horses will be a mixed bag). Because I've been riding for a while...I generally pick the horse divisions even though I might qualify for a rider division. IME--the horse divisions are typically a bit more competitive but not always.
    I think the key word here is "completed",
    not competed",as stated above, makes a difference.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    I beg to differ.

    I was raised to believe the USING THE RULES, as they are written and intended, to your advantage is PART OF competing. (This was motorcycle racing, but the principle is universal.)

    Not finding obscure loopholes, not bending the meaning of words. But using the clearly written intention to your advantage when possible.

    That being said, I rarely put "Rider" as a high preference when it is a level I am experienced at, even if I an eligible for Rider. But I also do not feel that there is a significant advantage to going in the Rider division- there are a lot of packer horses in there.
    As a pro trainer who did not event for three years and is now bringing a young horse along, the "horse" "rider" definitions make me eligible for divisions I have not been eligible for many, many, many years.

    At this point I am sticking to the "horse" and "open" divisions. Feels weird to know I am eligible for the "rider" divisions.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookmaNohands View Post
    As a pro trainer who did not event for three years and is now bringing a young horse along, the "horse" "rider" definitions make me eligible for divisions I have not been eligible for many, many, many years.

    At this point I am sticking to the "horse" and "open" divisions. Feels weird to know I am eligible for the "rider" divisions.
    I don't "enter" "Rider" either. (Though I can not control which division the secretary puts me in)

    But it does not bother me in the least that other experienced riders, who happen to be eligible for Rider, are in the Rider division.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  16. #16
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    Reasonable minds can disagree on this one. I just think it's tacky. Particularly so when a "professional" does it.
    Click here before you buy.



  17. #17
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    I have to agree with DW on this one. It's a little disheartening when you have professionals riding in the lower levels and winning everything when you (the amateur) with one horse have struggled long and hard to get to that level.
    Yogurt - If you're so cultured, how come I never see you at the opera? Steven Colbert



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn trails View Post
    I have to agree with DW on this one. It's a little disheartening when you have professionals riding in the lower levels and winning everything when you (the amateur) with one horse have struggled long and hard to get to that level.
    At least in my area, I don't see much of this (if any).

    I'm a lower level, one horse ammy and have never had true professionals in my division (20 years worth). Frankly, I wouldn't mind competing against them, but they are either in the "Horse" division or, more commonly, the "Open" division.



  19. #19
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    Sep. 2, 2009
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    There are no dumb questions... only dumb people



    Sorry, I couldn't resist. I always say that to my consultants (at least the ones that know me well enough and comfortable enough to snark back)



  20. #20
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    I have to chime in on the opposite side. I think one of the coolest things about our sports is that at every level, I can compete directly against olympians. How cool is that.

    I also think the line between ammy and professional has become blurrier with the new rules. For example, I am now a "professional". I teach a few lessons a month to students in my former trainer's program on her school horses. I get lessons in exchange. I still work a 60 hour per week day job, but am now a professional (my choice, I totally know and I love the teaching so that is not the point).

    I like the 5 year rule better than the 2 year rule, but I can say that for someone who had a nice horse as a young adult, then spent 5 or 6 years in school, working, etc. I think it would be totally fine for them to be in Rider divisions whether they were a pro or an ammy.
    OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!



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