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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    Default EPM, EMND, ESPM and muscle wasting?

    I need to work up a diet for a horse that has some issues. Had vet out today and she was concerned because he has been losing weight and his top line is starting to look really bad. He is only 12. She recomended feeding Vit E and expressed her concern that a lot of horses lately have been showing Vit E deficencies and will have muscle treamors etc. And thought very strongly my horse is developing this problem by the way he looked.

    SOOO! Ugg.... This horse was diagnosed with EPM many years ago and currently he gets the following:

    Timothy Hay
    1/2 lb of O and M to mix in
    Four flex with HA joint supplement
    Karbo Combo (for EMP)
    and I just added Vit E oil
    Free choice Harvest salt

    He has a lot of allergies (corn, beet pulp, Orchard hay, bermuda hay) and Alfalfa makes him TOO HOT.

    So any help or ideas? Thanks.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
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    18,472

    Default

    Tri-amino, and run a selenium titer asap.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  3. #3
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    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Tri-amino, and run a selenium titer asap.
    How much tri amino? And I can call the vet to run the test. Would you think he's deficient in Selenium? What are the dangers of this?

    Thanks. So much I don't know.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  4. #4
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    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
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    Default

    Did the vet consider a relapse of EPM? You want to hop on that ASAP if so.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  5. #5
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    Mar. 24, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    How much tri amino? And I can call the vet to run the test. Would you think he's deficient in Selenium? What are the dangers of this?

    Thanks. So much I don't know.
    My guess is that the tremors are from low selenium rather than vitamin E.

    My guy was diagnosed with PSSM but prior to that he was teeth grinding, and had muscle fasticulations, we pulled blood and found his selenium really low........the added selenium stopped the majority of the grinding and all of the muscle fasticulations but still had other unresolved issues.....which finally lead us to PSSM.

    Dalemma



  6. #6
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    Oct. 14, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalemma View Post
    My guess is that the tremors are from low selenium rather than vitamin E.

    My guy was diagnosed with PSSM but prior to that he was teeth grinding, and had muscle fasticulations, we pulled blood and found his selenium really low........the added selenium stopped the majority of the grinding and all of the muscle fasticulations but still had other unresolved issues.....which finally lead us to PSSM.

    Dalemma

    My horse grinds his teeth when he gets stressed. Did your horse grind randomly?

    Thanks so much for your help and ideas!
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  7. #7
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    Sep. 6, 2010
    Location
    Alaska
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    27

    Default

    http://www.draftresource.com/EPSM/Draft_EPSM_DIets.html

    http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/

    This might help I have been doing a lot of research on PSSM, EPSM.

    My QH just had his first episode and we are waiting for the DNA results to get back.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Default

    Where are you in CA. I would definitely do a blood work up, as well as have him tested for EPM again.

    Also, almost all horse in CA do not get enough vitamin E. Since he is in CA and had EPM he definitely needs to be supplemented with vitamin E, most likely as much as 5000-10000IUs daily.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2004
    Location
    Louisville, KY
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    Default

    I have no idea if you can get this feed in CA, but they are good articles:

    http://www.tributehorsefeeds.com/nut...in-horses.html
    http://www.tributehorsefeeds.com/ima...icles/pssm.pdf

    Caitlin
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2002
    Posts
    431

    Default

    DoubleS I'm going through a lot of the same crap right now. My horse had EPM 2 years ago and since bringing her back to work, we've run into problems with what seems to be just generalized muscle pain. She has fasiculations just standing there sometimes. Under saddle she turns into a tense crazy ball, her butt starts to hurt so she freaks out which then makes it hurt more which then makes her freak out more...you get the idea. It's a lot of fun to try and ride out, let me tell you.

    Anyways, I've changed her diet to make sure she's getting lots of fat and not much sugar, fed every supplement that might help (Vit E, vit C, selenium, quiessence, electrolytes, bla bla), run blood work that all comes back normal for muscle enzymes/vitamin levels/EPM itself, and still it persists. My vet thinks it might just be permanent neurological deficits. We've got a checklist of stuff we're working through before I throw in the towel and retire her at the ripe age of 9. Currently seeing a holistic vet that is adjusting her and feeding her some Traditional Chinese Medicine herb blends. Good luck with your boy, once EPM gets thrown in there nothing is easy.



  11. #11
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    Mar. 1, 2007
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    Agree with Perfect Pony re vit E. I had a mare diagnosed with EMND and was on 8000 IU for three months, dropped to 5000 for a couple of years and is maintaining on 2500 now.
    Not able to be ridden since (except for pony rides) but happy as a pasture pet. Only has faint muscle tremors if she acts like an idiot in turnout.
    We caught it before any significant muscle wasting. Always been a hard keeper so really not too much change in feed.



  12. #12
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    Mar. 24, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    My horse grinds his teeth when he gets stressed. Did your horse grind randomly?

    Thanks so much for your help and ideas!
    My horses teeth grinding was strictly due to pain.......since he has been diagnosed with PSSM and put on an appropriate diet there has been no teeth grinding........plus this horse has no stress he is a pasture/paddock puff/babysitter.....also he is too easy going to have anything stress him out

    Dalemma



  13. #13
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    Aug. 26, 2006
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    977

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    Do a lyme titer
    Do a mineral vitamin blood panel
    CBC panel
    Urine sample
    Fecal Sample


    I have been chasing some crazy stuff since NOVEMBER with my gelding and what I know now,
    I refuse to add a supplement anymore without knowing what you are starting with.
    I raced as a Doctor Jumped as a King
    Just remember me as Tobias
    5/6/2000 - 12/25/2011



  14. #14
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    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    Quote Originally Posted by woops View Post
    Do a lyme titer
    Do a mineral vitamin blood panel
    CBC panel
    Urine sample
    Fecal Sample


    I have been chasing some crazy stuff since NOVEMBER with my gelding and what I know now,
    I refuse to add a supplement anymore without knowing what you are starting with.
    Thanks everyone for your responses!

    I have emailed and called my vet to have blood panels done. What is so frustrating is I don't know what to throw at him as far as supplements, what works and what's bad....

    Yeah that's is what I remember too about EPM and vit E. I used to supplement it with 5000 IU's for years and a few years ago I cut it trying to cut costs of all the supplements I was feeding him.

    And I do agree about EPM horses (are special) probably because they are so special they got it to begin with....

    I used to feed Buckeye diet balancer but it was $18 a bag just in shipping. I need to find something that is local that doesn't get them "up"... both my horses have enough engery for this ole gal.... lol.

    Any ideas of supplements or diet ideas would be great!

    Thanks.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  15. #15
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    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nappingonthejob View Post
    DoubleS I'm going through a lot of the same crap right now. My horse had EPM 2 years ago and since bringing her back to work, we've run into problems with what seems to be just generalized muscle pain. She has fasiculations just standing there sometimes. Under saddle she turns into a tense crazy ball, her butt starts to hurt so she freaks out which then makes it hurt more which then makes her freak out more...you get the idea. It's a lot of fun to try and ride out, let me tell you.

    Anyways, I've changed her diet to make sure she's getting lots of fat and not much sugar, fed every supplement that might help (Vit E, vit C, selenium, quiessence, electrolytes, bla bla), run blood work that all comes back normal for muscle enzymes/vitamin levels/EPM itself, and still it persists. My vet thinks it might just be permanent neurological deficits. We've got a checklist of stuff we're working through before I throw in the towel and retire her at the ripe age of 9. Currently seeing a holistic vet that is adjusting her and feeding her some Traditional Chinese Medicine herb blends. Good luck with your boy, once EPM gets thrown in there nothing is easy.
    I am soooo sorry you are dealing with this too... I do find Karbo Combo works good for the EPM but now I think I am dealing with vit issues. Ad he's getting older I think his needs are changing. I know mine are! I used to feed Llysine... I might start that again.. but I want to get the blood done first...

    I will let you know what my vet finds out.... and I hope the herbs work for you. I found they didn't for my horse and found vaccinations caused relapses.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  16. #16
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    Yeah that's is what I remember too about EPM and vit E. I used to supplement it with 5000 IU's for years and a few years ago I cut it trying to cut costs of all the supplements I was feeding him.
    You cannot cut out vitamin E, especially a horse with known neurological issues. Some vets even believe that horses are susceptible to EPM partly because of a deficiency of vitamin E in the first place. All horses not on green pasture daily need supplemented vitamin E, period. Those with neurological deficits need even more, forever.

    I personally feed good hay, a couple lbs of Elk Grove Stable mix, Platinum Performance, and an additional 2000IUs Vitamin E, that's it.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    You cannot cut out vitamin E, especially a horse with known neurological issues. Some vets even believe that horses are susceptible to EPM partly because of a deficiency of vitamin E in the first place. All horses not on green pasture daily need supplemented vitamin E, period. Those with neurological deficits need even more, forever.

    I personally feed good hay, a couple lbs of Elk Grove Stable mix, Platinum Performance, and an additional 2000IUs Vitamin E, that's it.
    Interesting! I noticed his muscle wasting once the rain hit and I didn't put him out on the grass every day.

    The Elk Grove Stable mix looks really good. Ingredents my horse isn't allergic to - YAY. This is mostly minerals so there's not much to get them high.. (?)

    Which Platinum Performance do you feed?

    Thanks for your help.....
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  18. #18
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    I just feed the regular Platinum Performance (I have a pony, so one scoop a day, a horse gets 2), then add in a couple capsules of 1000IU natural vitamin E.

    I like the Stable Mix since it has a small amount of Alfalfa for more protein, and also includes rice bran. It seems to keep horses in good weight without a belly or getting hot.



  19. #19
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    Sep. 8, 2007
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    Just wanted to add make sure you are using natural vitamin E. It will say d-alpha NOT dl-alpha.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwblover View Post
    Just wanted to add make sure you are using natural vitamin E. It will say d-alpha NOT dl-alpha.
    I would also make sure you are using the capsule form they are much more effective....I use the human grade ones from Costco.

    Dalemma



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