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  1. #1
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    Default No DNA done on KWPN horses after 2004...final update from KWPN

    03/13/2011 - HI! I received further clarification from the KWPN consistent with my original phone conversation. Figured it was worth sharing. Here it is:
    Dear Mrs.,

    Sorry for this misunderstanding. For all KWPN horses born within the Netherlands a hairsample taken by the foalinspector since 2004. All foals within the Netherlands are inspected next to their mothers in year of birth. (My horse's name here) was also inspected in 2005 and also a hairsample was taken by the foalinspector. This sample was filed in our archives (with most of the other hairsamples), because there was no necessity to have a DNA verification for (My Horse) registration. A DNA test is only done as random check or for foals that were born out of embryo transplant, weaned foals, foals with more than one possible stallion as Sire etc., etc.

    So the DNA sample for (My Horse) was taken, but the DNA test was not performed. The sample was in our archives, until you asked us for the DNA profile.
    I hope to have informed you to your satisfaction.


    Update 6:05 am 3/11/10 - also posted on page 2

    Here is an email I received from the KWPN. All of my questions were not answered. It offers some clarification and still some confusion.

    "Dear Mrs.,

    Indeed we have hairsamples from (nearly all) KWPN registered horses born since 2004. The hairsamples were taken by our foal inspector in year of birth and are kept in our files, so if ever needed we have DNA samples.

    The hairsamples will only be used in year of birth, when a DNA test is requested. For instance if mare and foal are stationed abroad and can not be inspected by one of our inspectors, or when the foal is born from embryo transplant, is weaned or can be from more than one stallion as possible Sire, etc.

    Since 2007 we also do a DNA test on all mares that were at the KWPN selection to be entered in our studbook.

    Please let me know if you have any more questions.
    Best regards,
    Frederique van Saane "


    So DNA requested year of birth. Dont know if required. Still not clear about why no DNA on my horse. Maybe requested but not required? Or not requested unless one of the 3 scenarios occur.


    Original post
    Very interesting! I found out first hand on an imported KWPN horse that became deceased. The horse died before its DNA could be pulled here. I asked the KWPN NA person here about DNA in Holland and she said NO it could not be transfered. I was at a loss of where to get the DNA. I went through the hastle and expense of fed ex overnighting a horse blanket to UCDavis to try to pull DNA. $20 plus $40 test. No luck. I called the horse burial place to see if they could dig up the horse so I could get a tooth or something. NO.

    I started to realize that what the KWPN person here told me just sounded really fishy and wrong. I called the KWPN in Holland. I assumed that there was DNA pulled on this KWPN registered horse. Nope but there might be hair on file just incase. Within 2 minutes they were able to tell me that YES they had a hair sample on file! Imagine my surprise when I learned I could still get DNA! $67.

    Turns out the KWPN has a bank of hair samples of all horses born after 2004 that they will test when necessary. Very different from how we do it here. All horses have to be DNA tested before they are registered, not after. $127 later, the DNA is confirmed. It certainly would have been nice to get accurate information the first time around and to have not wasted that extra $60. Regardless I am thankful that it all turned out well!

    Do any other stud books in europe do this? Is this simply a trend that I was unaware of?

    FROM S A MCKEES POST ON PAGE 2:
    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    The KWPN website does NOT mention DNA typing in their foal registration process.
    They have a separate page that discusses the requirements for KWPN horses born outside of the Netherlands. That page discusses DNA testing. That makes it clear that KWPN-NA would have different procedures than KWPN in the Netherlands
    .
    Last edited by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider; Mar. 14, 2011 at 10:36 AM.



  2. #2
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    Default

    WHAT??? Are you kidding me?

    KWPN is issuing registration papers without doing parentage verification? And has been doing this since 2004?

    If true, this is quite an eye-opening revelation.



  3. #3
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    Default

    It does seem like an odd way to do things. Maybe my horse was the only one and I just got lucky they were still able to obtain DNA? :-) This is how it was told to me when I called to investigate DNA done in Holland as a foal. I am very happy that there was a hair sample. The results were just emailed to me this morning after I called to follow up.

    I am sure there is some logic as to why they now do it this way, right? Maybe there are some other guidelines or qualifications we don't know about.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider View Post
    It does seem like an odd way to do things. Maybe my horse was the only one and I just got lucky they were still able to obtain DNA? :-) This is how it was told to me when I called to investigate DNA done in Holland as a foal. I am very happy that there was a hair sample. The results were just emailed to me this morning after I called to follow up.

    I am sure there is some logic as to why they now do it this way, right? Maybe there are some other guidelines or qualifications we don't know about.
    What would the logic be? I am glad it worked out for you, but that is a strange way to do things. Are they charging for DNA verification when the original registration is applied for? Just curious, because if you paid for the DNA to be run, was there an original charge when registration was applied for. (besides the actual charge for the papers) I guess if it works for them, so be it. As someone who has witnessed a huge registration debacle (in another breed) papers without verification would make me leary and going backwards if something crops up would seem to be the dog wagging the tail so to speak.
    www.Somermistfarm.com
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  5. #5
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    Default

    Not my kind of logic, but countries have customs and logic different than than that of the us. Social customs, foreign policy, taxes, animal rights laws. You get the picture. Some makes sense and some just doesnt.

    Im not sure if they charged for DNA at the time of registration in Holland. Got the papers, the passport and the horse was in the top 10 as a weanling.



  6. #6
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    Default

    I believe this is incorrect. Are you certain the hair samples are not simply backup?
    I do know that my US-born Dutch filly was DNA tested by Davis - twice, actually. Once to get her papers initially, and a second time when I requested replacement papers after her originals were misplaced during a move.
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
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  7. #7
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    Default

    Note the details. Dutch bred imported horse not us bred. Yes about UCDavis on US bred horses. Horse was I repeat NOT DNA tested no DNA on file in Holland. I said I am calling to get a copy of DNA on this horse exportedtoUS. They said none was done but we have hair you can test. Did test and I now have DNA.



  8. #8
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    Default

    Interesting...

    Perhaps the KWPN only does "random" DNA testing on hair samples? If they honestly do NO testing, I find that surprising and unsettling.

    The KFPS (Dutch Friesian studbook) does random testing, and through this there was a relatively recent case of fraud uncovered where a whole bunch of foals that were supposedly by Rypke 321 were actually by the same unapproved stallion. Apparently, Rypke 321 had become sterile, and his owner was using a different stallion in his place.

    In another instance, an approved stallion's damsire was determined to be inaccurate via DNA testing. Thankfully, in that instance, the actual damsire was ALSO an approved stallion.

    There ARE people out there who will try to get away with unscrupulous things. I personally think that they should be verifying parentage via DNA on ALL of the horses. Having that information on file could not only prove parentage, but also prevent fraud when a horse is sold.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
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    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  9. #9
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    Default

    i am curious.... has DNA testing come so far that it is able to say who parents are? i haven't (obviously) kept up to date, but last i heard DNA could only narrow down the possibilities - not do an exact match?

    eta found my answer:
    Parentage Testing

    Parentage testing establishes the degree of relationship between the foal, and the suspected dam and sire. DNA parentage testing can determine with extreme accuracy who is, or is not the possible sire or dam of a foal. DNA profiling is the most accurate and reliable method for determining the parentage of any foal. Use our online parentage calculator to perform your own parentage verification.
    http://www.horsetesting.com/DNATyping.htm

    so, does this mean that someone could substitute a close relative and the test would not be able to pick this up?

    i have always been fascinated with the trust we put into what is on the registration papers. seems like it would be so easy to lie! in fact i know this has happened in many breeds.... so genetic testing is a great thing just curious how correct it is?



  10. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i am curious.... has DNA testing come so far that it is able to say who parents are? i haven't (obviously) kept up to date, but last i heard DNA could only narrow down the possibilities - not do an exact match?

    eta found my answer:
    Parentage Testing


    http://www.horsetesting.com/DNATyping.htm

    so, does this mean that someone could substitute a close relative and the test would not be able to pick this up?

    i have always been fascinated with the trust we put into what is on the registration papers. seems like it would be so easy to lie! in fact i know this has happened in many breeds.... so genetic testing is a great thing just curious how correct it is?
    If there is a sample to test against then yes, it is accurate.
    If the sire and dam have samples on file at UC Davis ( for US horses) then you will get a definite answer.
    http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/

    This board often has threads about how important the pedigree information is. But perhaps the only pedigree info that can be relied on is the TB files? what do the other registries do in regard to genetic testing?

    That would mean that PHR dna tested horses have accurate info and KWPN in Europe does not or it's on the 'honor system'.
    The irony would be exquisite.



  11. #11
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    Default

    This was very interesting. I have another question and I don't mean to sound snarky at all. Why did you have to have DNA test information for a horse that was deceased? I'm drawing a blank as to why this might be needed. (Not a breeder, just hang out on this forum to learn.)

    ETA: Rules for Arabs:

    Once the Association has received your completed application and fee, you will receive a blood kit or DNA kit, depending on the foal's birth date and whether or not the parents have been DNA typed. A sample can then be obtained and sent the laboratory. Instructions are included with all DNA and blood testing kits.

    For foals born 2002 and after, DNA typing will be the required tool for parentage verification at registration. Both the sire and dam of the foal will need to have a DNA type on file in order for the foal to be registered.

    Horse will not be registered unless DNA test is OK.
    Last edited by oldernewbie; Mar. 10, 2011 at 01:19 PM. Reason: additional info



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    If there is a sample to test against then yes, it is accurate.
    yes, but note in the text i quote that is says "possible" and "degrees" ....



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i am curious.... has DNA testing come so far that it is able to say who parents are? i haven't (obviously) kept up to date, but last i heard DNA could only narrow down the possibilities - not do an exact match?

    eta found my answer:
    Parentage Testing


    http://www.horsetesting.com/DNATyping.htm

    so, does this mean that someone could substitute a close relative and the test would not be able to pick this up?

    i have always been fascinated with the trust we put into what is on the registration papers. seems like it would be so easy to lie! in fact i know this has happened in many breeds.... so genetic testing is a great thing just curious how correct it is?
    Doesn't DNA testing give you a percentage? Like this foal is 99.8% certain to belong to these parents? I would think that if you tried to substitute a close relative for one of the true parents, the percentage would decrease and show up as (for instance) 75% likely? Just a guess.

    Caitlin
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    This was very interesting. I have another question and I don't mean to sound snarky at all. Why did you have to have DNA test information for a horse that was deceased? I'm drawing a blank as to why this might be needed. (Not a breeder, just hang out on this forum to learn.)

    .

    Trying to not speak for the OP but its possible the deseased horse could have offspring on the ground or on the way and would need to be dna verified to register them which is ironic if it is the case considering the thread.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  15. #15
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    so, does this mean that someone could substitute a close relative and the test would not be able to pick this up?
    The test may not be able to tell the exact relationship of a close relative, or it may give a good guess as to the relationship, but it definitely could tell the difference between parents and close relative.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    This was very interesting. I have another question and I don't mean to sound snarky at all. Why did you have to have DNA test information for a horse that was deceased? I'm drawing a blank as to why this might be needed. (Not a breeder, just hang out on this forum to learn.)
    My guess would be for mortality insurance purposes.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
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    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  17. #17
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    What are you people on about? I've registered foals with the KWPN in 05,06, and nearly 08. First time around I needed DNA samples for mare and foal. After that for the foal only. Reason being, they already have a DNA profile on the mare which will not change obviously so yeah I am sure hers is in a bank. At not stage was I allowed to register my foal before providing a DNA sample. So don't know where you all are getting that crap from. Not different customs due to different country. Quite the same. Reminds me of when I was told on this board that Weatherby's was way behind the times as they only did blood sampling. Uh no, you get DNA from blood too or else the CSI series wouldn't still be alive and kicking would it.

    I still have the official lock of hair pulled from my 08 baby which died in her little official packet that went with the markings chart and other stuff that came in the registration packet from the KWPN. Again, no need to redo the mare. The way you guys have the system set up it in your minds it means a stallion would have to give hair samples for every foal born. No, his DNA is on file obvioulsy the same as my mare and that I guess would be in their little DNA bank. Foals are not allowed to be registered before giving a DNA sample.

    Sorry but some of the responses are a bit silly. Come on you make it sound like we're flipping cowboys over here in Europe registering foals willy nilly. For what reason I don't know. Ranks right up there with microchips are so easy to take out. Trust me, we are a lot more stirct over here than back home when it comes to registering.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

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  18. #18
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    This "crap" came from the KWPN. For whatever reason, they had no DNA on the horse. For whatever reason, they said they had a hair sample bank. For whatever reason, they said that they now have hair on file from horses born from 2004 on. And I didnt solicit this information. They volunteered it wholeheartedly. They looked and they had a sample of the needed hair and would l like to have it tested for DNA? Well sure. Why not? Hair was tested and nothing short of a miracle there is now DNA on the horse.

    I would think this would be obvious, but if they already had DNA on file, I would have not had to pay to have this hair sample tested to pull DNA.

    Terri, I am sure that since you are not in the us and familiar with things here, you do not know that US satelite offices of several european studbooks have slightly different and tweaked rules than the home office.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider View Post
    Note the details. Dutch bred imported horse not us bred. Yes about UCDavis on US bred horses. Horse was I repeat NOT DNA tested no DNA on file in Holland. I said I am calling to get a copy of DNA on this horse exportedtoUS. They said none was done but we have hair you can test. Did test and I now have DNA.
    Yes, thank you, I "noted" the details which is why I specified that by way of example, my US bred filly was DNA tested. My point is that I find it hard to believe that the US branch has different standards.
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  20. #20
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    Sorry YL I thought maybe you didnt see that it was a horse born in NL. I agree it is hard to believe. I am certainly happy that there was a hair sample and we now have DNA.



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