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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2010
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    59

    Default PHR registered mare w/ 100% TB lineage... warmblood breeding approvals?

    If someone has a 100% TB mare (DNA tested), registered in the PHR, what warmblood registries could her foals be registered in (if the stud was a liscensed/approved stud in that registry)?

    For example, the KWPN's website says the following requirements for Reg A:

    "
    Register A (Reg A) generally includes foals
    by:
    Licensed stallions, stallions from an Erkend studbook or non-Erkend Thoroughbred stallions;
    out of: KWPN Foalbook, Studbook, Register A, Register B, Auxiliary Foalbook, Auxiliary Studbook, Thoroughbred or Erkend Studbook mares. Register A foals are eligible for keuring premium grading classes. Horses registered in the Register A may be presented for studbook as long as the horse completes any compulsory additional requirements. These may include radiographs, endoscopy and/or performance.
    "

    Does Thoroughbred in this context mean the mare has to be Jockey Club registered or will a PHR mare w/ 100% TB lineage be acceptable?

    Thanks so much!!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
    Location
    Mirabel, QC
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    2,657

    Default

    They usually require Jockey Club papers, but I would have the same question as you.

    Hopefully someone will know the answer. (In the case of the KWPN-NA, did you try calling them? They are extremely helpful...)



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2005
    Location
    Paris, Kentucky
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    3,205

    Default

    It has been mentioned before that the JC will not accept AI TB foals for registration, but the PHR will.

    I think that it would be in the best interest of the registries to consider these mares as if they had JC papers.
    Last edited by Iron Horse Farm; Mar. 9, 2011 at 07:13 PM. Reason: brain fart
    Holly
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
    It has been mentioned before that the JC will not accept live cover TB foals for registration, but the PHR will.
    Do you mean "...accept AI TB foals..."?

    Live cover is the ONLY acceptable JC option
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    Sunbury, NC
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    Default

    We have a TB mare that was reg. TB and had JC papers issued. Then a few years later it came out that the sire was conceived via AI. Big court battle ensued after his papers were revoked and therefore, unfortunately, so were his offspring's. Luckily this mare also had been registered with PHR for the awards program, so we were able to prove her lineage that way to the RPSI and she was approved MMB. More unfortunately though, she is uneligible for GOV, etc because of her lack of JC papers anymore (even though she did have them, and obviously was DNA verified to get them). So that being said, I feel RPSI will consider other horses with PHR papers if they meet the other criteria, unless ours was a special case due to the bizarre nature of the story.
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
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    Default

    I am not a member of RPSI, but have heard that they will accept TB mares with DNA results, registered with PHR but not JC. I don't think any of the other registries will accept them without JC papers - except in the lowest mare books.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2010
    Posts
    3,061

    Default

    ISR will accept her - but the foal will be branded ISR, not Old. Other options, RPSI and AWS.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2000
    Location
    VA
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    3,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
    I think that it would be in the best interest of the registries to consider these mares as if they had JC papers.
    As long as DNA can be proven, I agree with Iron Horse.

    There are many really well bred TB's that were bred for sport, not racing, so the JC papers weren't that important. Its a shame to not be able to take advantage of those lines over a formality.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2010
    Posts
    59

    Default

    FYI... I sent an email to KWPN-NA, and they verified that "Thoroughbred" to them only means "Jockey Club" Registered. Therefore, for the KWPN in particular, a foal from a PHR registered horse w/ 100% TB lineage would be registered in the Reg B book.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
    Location
    Prospect, ME
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    4,585

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lbw25 View Post
    FYI... I sent an email to KWPN-NA, and they verified that "Thoroughbred" to them only means "Jockey Club" Registered. Therefore, for the KWPN in particular, a foal from a PHR registered horse w/ 100% TB lineage would be registered in the Reg B book.

    That is insane! Does the KWPN-NA insist on the WBs they register to be conceived using live cover? Because that's what they're insisting happen with any TB they accept.

    Yet again full TBs get kicked down a little lower.

    As long as the DNA is on file what does it matter if the horse has JC papers or papers from the PHR?!
    -Jessica



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 8, 2009
    Location
    Ontario
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    556

    Default

    I know the Canadian Warmblood Association will...I know she is registered...but not warmblood, TB etc...but here is how you can...

    Unregistered mare: - enter her in the Stud Book or present her for inspection: -

    Apply to National Office or your Provincial Chapter for 'Application for Inspection & Stud Book Entry'
    Attach a copy of DNA profile or Profile number and lab if already done; If no DNA profile available, attach DNA Test Kit Application and fee of $60.00.
    Complete known pedigree on the back of the form; mares in this category will be entered as a grade mare and placed into the Auxiliary Book.
    Inspect: Present your open mare, or in her first year of breeding, or with foal at foot, for inspection. Inspection fee of $100.00 includes initial Stud Book entry for the first breeding season ..... OR
    Enter: with appropriate fee. Mare Entry fee of $45.00 includes initial Stud Book entry for the first breeding season.
    if leased, include appropriate documentation.
    Mail to CWHBA Office



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 18, 2001
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    Here and there
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    Default

    I'm really hoping someone takes this issue up with the registries before I have to...

    (and yes, that day is coming!)
    Not all who wander are lost.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Western South Dakota
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    Default

    I'd go with RPSI. They seem to be more "open minded" as long as bloodlines can be proven.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AppJumpr08 View Post
    That is insane! Does the KWPN-NA insist on the WBs they register to be conceived using live cover? Because that's what they're insisting happen with any TB they accept.
    Well, not really. They are just insisting on papers, and it just happens that a full TB can't get papers if not conceived LC.

    As long as the DNA is on file what does it matter if the horse has JC papers or papers from the PHR?!
    Well, I agree To have DNA verification of being a full TB, yet toss out the horse because it was AI and not LC and therefore no official papers, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    ______________________________
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  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 4, 2006
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    An American Living In Ireland
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    Default

    The rules aren't going to change any time soon. I think the mist unfortunate thing that happens is that TB's get sold or given away without papers. That can't happen here. But it does seem there is a registry you can work with so go with that.

    Honestly you can see how the line would be blurred if they allowed AI breeding for TB's intended for sport only. So it just won't be an option. We can scream and shout all we like but rules are rules. They may not be fair but they are what they are.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2003
    Location
    Livermore CA
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    488

    Default

    Several years ago I helped host a Swedish Warmblood inspection, and I asked the Swedish judges about this very thing while we were driving to the airport.

    They said, They didn't see why they WOULDN'T accept a TB that was registered with PHR or someone else, as long as it was DNA tested to be a pure TB, it would be considered a TB. However, the SWB registry is fairly open minded with accepting horses from other registries--as long as they meet the bloodline requirements (and in the case of outside stallions, performance requirements/100DT/etc).

    This was probably 8 years ago so you may want to double check.

    I would also second RPSI as an avenue to pursue. They seem to really like good TBs, and an AI conceived TB is much more likely to have been bred for sport than your average LC TB, right?



  17. #17
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    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Well, not really. They are just insisting on papers, and it just happens that a full TB can't get papers if not conceived LC.
    I know - I was mostly being sarcastic. It seems so archaic to insist on JC papers even though DNA can PROVE who the horse is. To say that an averagely bred race lined JC registered mare is eligible for book A but a stunningly bred, best sport lines in the country PHR registered mare is only eligible for book B just seems counter productive to me.
    -Jessica



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec. 1, 2002
    Posts
    216

    Default

    If you breed your mare to an approved Swedish stallion, if the mare has no papers, then the foal will be registered but in a lower book. If I remember correctly, the foal is still considered a SWB for purposes of HOY awards for USEF and USDF.

    Please check with the Swana office to be sure...
    Mary

    Mary Baechler
    http://amorexswb.com/



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