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  1. #1
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    Default American Stallions vs. European Stallions

    If you don't look at money or semen quality who would you breed to, if you want a foal with great movement & athletic possibilities? U.S stallions or European stallions?

    I'm a jumper breeder but do enjoy a beautiful hunter or an athletic dressage horse.



  2. #2
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    I pick the best stallion for my mares regardless of country. There are very nice stallions in both countries, so its not an issue. Making the right match is.
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  3. #3
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    I'm not entirely sure what your asking? Why does it matter where the stallion is standing?

    I agree with Werhlegirl, it is about the best match. Doesn't make a bit of difference where the horse is. The best US stallions are imported anyways. Fresh semen is nice, but there is a large variety in Europe. Just off the top of my head here are a few imported US stallions who are well respected everywhere; Fabuleux, Rousseau, Dacaprio, Sir Gregory (although young), Falsterbo, Pablo, Wonderful, etc.... Those are just a few.
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  4. #4
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    "The best US stallions are imported anyways. "

    Interesting... do you have any facts to back up that statement?
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  5. #5
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    "The best US stallions are imported anyways. "

    Doesn't this just summarise the attitude many breeders seem to have? Foreign is always better than domestic? The grass is always greener syndrome?



  6. #6
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    So many stallions come over here that a 9 years old or older, and they have had dwindling foal crops in their home region. Not the kind of record that says "I am not a cull" from the European breeding sheds.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    So many stallions come over here that a 9 years old or older, and they have had dwindling foal crops in their home region. Not the kind of record that says "I am not a cull" from the European breeding sheds.
    I think that's rather harsh. The fashion in Germany and Holland right now is to send a mare to the latest licensing champion and not to the older stallions. The Verbands are having extensive talks about how to prevent this from happening as they view it as being damaging to sports horse breeding as a whole. It is insane when an unproven new stallion gets 900 mares in his first year and one who is competing GP as an 8yo gets a tiny handful of coverings. The number of mares covered by a stallion has, at the moment, very little to do with his quality or the quality of his offspring. It is more to do with how heavily he is marketed.

    If you look at the FN rankings (which are heavily flawed because they weight young horse class results too much) there are several stallions who have had minute mare books in the last few years. Real Diamond? Muenchhausen? Do you ever hear people (other than breeders who look beyond the buzz like Fannie Mae) talking about these stallions? No, you just hear people talking about Quaterback and Ampere and Bretton Woods. What have those buzz stallions achieved in sport? Very little. Quaterback is now older than Totilas and De Niro were when they did their first Grand Prix. Quaterback isn't even showing PSG in demonstrations. For me he is a stallion I would want to see progeny results on before rushing out to use him or to buy any of his stock. For me he hasn't proven his ability to sit or collect and he hasn't proven his trainability. He may well be able to do all these things but right now I don't think he's proved that he can and until he does he is on my "watch" list. Ampere has been described as being 'disappointing' when he came out under saddle and his book has shrunk. Personally I think its way too early to draw any conclusions about him. He is still very young. The same was said about Westpoint when he was shown under saddle as a 7yo. This was after he'd won the 6yo world championships! Now he is out as an 8yo people are happy with his work again.

    The above is not trying to "dis" any stallions. It is simply trying to illustrate why the size of a stallion's mare book is a very poor indicator of his worth as a stallion. The stallions that have been exported to the US with "dwindling foal crops" are more likely to be victims of breeding fashion than culls from that country's breeding stock.



  8. #8
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    I am totally unfamiliar with dressage breeding. However, with regard to jumper stallions, the prohibitive cost to the stallion owner of training, competing and campaigning a NA -born and/or -based stallion makes it nigh on to impossible to put a record on the stallion that is comparable to the European-based stallion. This is coupled with the fact that, in the main, even the NA-based pros want a mount that has been there, done that to compete on. May I add that most NA-based pros are in no way equipped with either the knowledge or the ability and willingness to accommodate mare owners while their stallions are competing. Sad but true.
    Last edited by Sakura Hill Farm; Mar. 1, 2011 at 11:35 AM. Reason: clarity
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  9. #9
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    Don't you know that they go from HERO to ZERO as soon as they hit North American soil.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenbrin View Post
    If you don't look at money or semen quality who would you breed to, if you want a foal with great movement & athletic possibilities? U.S stallions or European stallions?

    I'm a jumper breeder but do enjoy a beautiful hunter or an athletic dressage horse.
    The right stallion for my mare with the best produce record, regardless of where he is located.

    Unless marketability is a factor... Then it's a whole other discussion.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wehrlegirl View Post
    I pick the best stallion for my mares regardless of country. There are very nice stallions in both countries, so its not an issue. Making the right match is.
    This.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    "The best US stallions are imported anyways. "

    Interesting... do you have any facts to back up that statement?
    Are you realy asking? I agree with those above that said that we do not necessarly import the best of europeens stallions. However, it is clear that most of the best producers in America were imported. If what we import are only the culls from Europe (Wich I do not think), then we have to be humble and try to find out why Europeens unwanted produce better than our own? No need to go around and name the stallions. Take aside Popeye K and a couple of other good american hunter producers (a fine romance, just the best, etc...), almost all of the stallions with significant production at a higher level are from Europe.

    However, in respond to the OP, I agree with the majority of the posters before me; if the stallion that best compliment your mare for what you want to produce is in America, then go for it!



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
    May I add that most NA-based pros are in no way equipped with either the knowledge or the ability and willingness to accommodate mare owners while their stallions are competing. Sad but true.
    Too true, but it's not in the trainer's interest. The true interest in standing a stallion to the public has to lie with the owner. If it's important to the owner, it will be important to the trainer.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
    Too true, but it's not in the trainer's interest. The true interest in standing a stallion to the public has to lie with the owner. If it's important to the owner, it will be important to the trainer.
    Agreed!
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  15. #15
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    OK guys...get ready for a RANT!!!

    As most of you know I stand two, soon to be three, American born and bred stallions. All of them are by and out of European bloodlines. They could have been born and bred in Europe and imported. Yes, I bought frozen semen and bred an imported mare!!! Why??? It was to get a good base to start from. As a breeder this is important.

    From a stallion owner's point of view I have to say that we all (all stallion owners) are really making a huge effort to supply American breeders with fresh cooled semen (which is definitely easier to use) from superior quality stallions. Most of us lose money every year doing it. Why are we losing money??? Because of people who still think that breeding to European stallions or buying from and importing horses is always going to get you a better product. Sometimes it does, sometimes not. Here is an example that just happened. My "Hunter" stallion, Balt'Amour's son Bragging Rights MF just beat 27 other horses at the Young Horse Show in the Jump Chute competition. He scored 8.7 as a Two Year Old. He beat three imported Five Year Old's who were by or out of Quidam de Revel, Cor de la Bryere, Cassini II, Torino, Don Shufro, Caridor Z, Balou du Rouet, and others by Cabardino, Lord Pezi, Chin Chin, Cobra One, etc. The closest score to him was 8.5 by a Five Year Old.

    We all know that Europeans tend to only sell Americans the horses they have culled. Unless you have unlimited funds you are not getting the best Europe has to offer.

    I really hope that all of you breeders will look at stallions standing in America first. People like Lisa Lourie (Spy Coast Farm) and Hunter Harrison (Double H Farm) have spent millions importing wonderful stallions. Fortunately for you they can afford it, but they are offering these wonderful stallions to all of you to breed to. These stallions, as are mine and many others, are of proven bloodlines producing great offspring.

    In response to the practice in Europe of breeders flocking to the next Stallion Performance test winner to breed to instead of breeding over and over to the older proven sires...they are smart. They know that each new stallion brings something new and exciting to the equation. Years ago I bred to Balta'Czar (unproven at the time) instead of Alla'Czar (way proven!!!) because I loved Balta'Czar's mare line. Now my stallion Balt'Amour adds yet another great mare line.

    The answer to the OP is of course breed to the stallion that best compliments your mare. My bet is that you will find more than one standing right here in North America!!!

    Please support stallions standing in America!

    RANT over!

    Maggie
    www.MarabetFarm.com
    Standing Balt'Amour, Bliss MF & Carry On MF

    Sales, Stallion & Young Horse training, lessons
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    I think that's rather harsh. The fashion in Germany and Holland right now is to send a mare to the latest licensing champion and not to the older stallions. The Verbands are having extensive talks about how to prevent this from happening as they view it as being damaging to sports horse breeding as a whole. It is insane when an unproven new stallion gets 900 mares in his first year and one who is competing GP as an 8yo gets a tiny handful of coverings. The number of mares covered by a stallion has, at the moment, very little to do with his quality or the quality of his offspring. It is more to do with how heavily he is marketed.
    I agree that this is happening, but the truly great stallions are not put on the back burner by the latest, greatest flash in the pan 3-year old. Perhaps it happens more with dressage breeding than jumper breeding?? The likes of Cassini I, Contender, Darco, QDR, Diamant de Semilly, Papillon Rouge, Nimmerdor, Heartbreaker, Weltmeyer, Jazz, Ferro, Rubinstein, etc., will (did) always attract the best mares. Yes, breeders will be attracted to a new stallion but do you really think the breeder is making a choice between Cassini I and the 3-year old they just saw at the Keuring? Hands down, Cassini I is chosen every time.

    Regarding marketing/marketability... the truly great stallions do the marketing all on their own. They do not require a giant marketing machine to sell breedings or to sell their offspring. As the saying goes, "the proof is in the pudding."



  17. #17
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    My turn to rant...

    1st and foremost, you breed to the best stallion for your mare, regardless of marketability. It is always easy to market an absolute athlete, regardless of their sire. It is very hard to sell a unathletic Contender gelding. They may come to look at it, but buy it, I think not.

    2nd, most don't know what the best stallion is for their mare. They don't know how to evaluate the available stallions other then looking at them and seeing pictures of a few of their foals, and many don't know what their mare needs. So my first statement is difficult for most.

    3rd, Stallions in Europe tend to get more mares from a relatively common, controlled group of mares. This allows us to actually evaluate them and determine which mares work best. We get breeding indexes, and first hand knowledge based on Hundreds breedings. Most stallions in America get less then 10 a year. How do you know if that stallion is the best for your mare. So its not that they are better, its just that we at least have the data to help us with my point #1.

    4th, Not all imports are culls. Some are and some aren't. However, it is important to their business to have these stallion out there breeding and promoting their brand. Cassini II was definately not a cull, he got a full book every year of 300+ mares. Yet he is on lease. Since we don't know which ones are culls and which ones aren't we need to ask the breeders who had them what they found and not just assume.

    5th, Young stock are controlled in Holstein, so you can't breed 900 mares in one season. Even the big boys can't. Freshman stallions only get 80 mares in their first year. Most for two years. Diarado got 1500 mares his first year, but only 80 in Holstein.

    6th, You can't determine how a stallion will breed by how he performed in sport, or lack there of. You can only know by the horses they have put on the ground, and back to point #2 there are more of them from European based stallions. Not necessarily better, just more information. To somes points above, if we supported our domestic stock a little better, we would have more knowledge. To this point I am breeding my mare to Rolling Rock who doesn't have a single foal on the ground yet. I think he could be the best, but I won't know until I breed to him. If anyone has any questions about him, I have know him since he was a month old. I know the owner and I can get you a discount on him if your mare qualifies.

    7th and last point. You can get the best in Europe if you know how. You don't have to spend a lot of money. I know for a fact that in Holstein they will sell you their best, but at first you must know what their best is, and not wait until all of Europe has picked through them to start looking, because like us, they will sell you their worst also. If you are perplexed, PM me.

    So I would suggest you breed both, domestic and foreign. I think it is our obligation to test the young stallions so that we can find out which are the good ones. And remember, its not that Europe has better stallions, they just have better tested ones.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  18. #18
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    Stated by RyTimMick ..... "So I would suggest you breed both, domestic and foreign. I think it is our obligation to test the young stallions so that we can find out which are the good ones. And remember, its not that Europe has better stallions, they just have better tested ones."

    This, over and over!!
    Siegi Belz
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieF View Post
    We all know that Europeans tend to only sell Americans the horses they have culled. Unless you have unlimited funds you are not getting the best Europe has to offer.
    And, I'm tired of hearing that Europeans sell Americans their culls. I disagree with this completely. I'm beginning to think that this is some sort of upside down marketing plan that breeders in the U.S. use to try and convince Americans to buy horses domestically. That's right, call buyers in the U.S. stupid and see if they beat a path to your door.

    "Unlimited funds" gets you the best holds true whether you are buying in the U.S. or Europe.

    I NEVER select a stallion based on where he stands. I select him because he's the best possible cross on my mare. The last thing I will do is select a stallion JUST because he stands in the U.S. But if you're standing the stallion that crosses best with my mare, I will beat a path to your door.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    And, I'm tired of hearing that Europeans sell Americans their culls. I disagree with this completely. I'm beginning to think that this is some sort of upside down marketing plan that breeders in the U.S. use to try and convince Americans to buy horses domestically. That's right, call buyers in the U.S. stupid and see if they beat a path to your door.

    "Unlimited funds" gets you the best holds true whether you are buying in the U.S. or Europe.

    I NEVER select a stallion based on where he stands. I select him because he's the best possible cross on my mare. The last thing I will do is select a stallion JUST because he stands in the U.S. But if you're standing the stallion that crosses best with my mare, I will beat a path to your door.
    I have had three German trainers and one American, who lived and trained young horses in Germany for 8 years, work for me. Trust me, Americans don't even get to see the good horses.

    Maggie
    www.MarabetFarm.com
    Standing Balt'Amour, Bliss MF & Carry On MF

    Sales, Stallion & Young Horse training, lessons
    Foaling, Collecting Stallions, ET, Custom Breeding



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