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  1. #21
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    I'm rather surprised any locality would permit an off leash park to be unfenced.

    Dogs pack up and can go after anything. Including people, kids, and other pets.

    Nothing wrong with an off-leash park - but I don't blame the facility for being upset. Loose pets are a liability.

    And given that most owners these days have about as much control over their dogs as they do their children..... it's just plain common sense to either keep them leashed in public places, or fenced so that they don't pose a danger to others.

    The dogs, I mean.

    I dislike seeing foxhounds or any hunting dog compared to a loose domestic or feral dog. They are very different things.

    And though it is true that field hunters do tolerate dogs - many many prospective field hunters fail that very basic test. Which is one reason a good field hunter is so hard to make or find.

    In any event, even a field hunter has his limits. And a group of dogs packing up and attacking it isn't something many animals will tolerate without a big fight.

    The scenario of a horse and rider being harassed, a dog or dogs being kicked/killed, while the rider and the dog owner(s) are screaming...... or a rider being thrown from a horse and maimed or killed.... or a kid being bitten while she's sitting on a bench eating a hot dog... it's just so easy to avoid that scenario why not just fence the dog park?
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  2. #22
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    Aug. 12, 2009
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    This is not about just horse owners in general. This is about an established business of horse back riding at the park being unable to operate because the dogs are chasing the horses. I looked at the park's map and the dog area is basically adjacent to the horse stable. The park touts the activities including horseback riding. If the dogs were fenced in or leashed then the dogs could enjoy the park and so could the horseback riders.

    I love to let my well trained dog loose in the right environment. However it seems in this case the park planners did not do a very good job. They do have maps of their plans to fence, etc. I think eventually it will work out but what does the barn owner do in the interim? He is not willing to risk an injury to horse/rider or dogs so he has stopped doing business. I doubt he did this because of his horses "spooking" just because dogs are nearby. I suspect the dogs are in fact chasing the horses.

    I agree he needs to work with the park and dog owners but putting loose dogs right next to the horse stable does sound like a recipe for disaster. Not every dog owner is going to have control of his dog.

    Maybe the barn owner ought to just let his horses free and see what happens



  3. #23
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    Nov. 2, 2001
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    Packing my bags
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Matson View Post
    Off leash dog owners vs. horse stable owner in Colorado. Someone needs to put these dog owners on a horse and have their dogs chase the horse they are on.

    http://www.9news.com/seenon9news/article.aspx?storyid=181791&catid=509

    Forget cats, at Cherry Creek State Park, the fight is between horses and dogs. It has even escalated to the point that one man claims it is hurting his 40-year-old business and could force him to close.

    The Paint Horse Stables are the only place to ride in the southeast metro area.

    "To have this close down where people don't have the opportunity to ride horses is just a shame," Hantschel said with tears in his eyes. "You know, watching kids when they come out to our camps, and they look up at the horses, and they're going, 'Geez, what am I doing here?' By the end of the week, they can brush, bridal, saddle their own horses."

    The horseman hasn't administered a trail ride since May of last year.

    "The dogs chase the horses and it creates a dangerous condition, and we can't allow for people to get hurt out here," Hantschel said. "Over the last two to three years, it's escalated to the point where we can't open."

    Although park officials voted months ago to downsize areas for off-leash dog parks at Cherry Creek State Park, Hantschel says it hasn't helped.

    Park officials say they plan to build a fence to try to separate the dogs and horses. Dog owners say they think it comes down to being responsible for your animals.

    "Just like it's our responsibility to train our dogs not to approach the horses, I'm wondering if he can train his horses not to be spooked by our dogs," dog park user Stacy McDonald said.

    I have seen the other side of a tear jerker like that. I seldom believe those stories on face value anymore.

    I am sure there is a nice juicy story on the other side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  4. #24
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    Aug. 12, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoForAGallop View Post
    Yes, it is just one dog owner. But that quote would lead you to believe that even the other dog owners expect all dogs to behave around horses, and would inform their peers of that. In the parks around me, dogs are off-leash all the time, having a ball. Fencing is expensive, and most dog owners don't want to walk laps around the half-acre dog park all day. I just think it's unreasonable for the minority (horses) to dictate to the majority (dogs) what they should be doing/where they have to be/etc.

    It's reasonable for both sides to expect the other side to be well-trained and respect the others. I have made many friends out on the trail because a big giant dog bounded up to my horse, and I just politely asked the dog owner to catch the dog up and introduce it properly, chatting with them all the while. I'm a dog person (currently holding steady at three sleeping on my bed every night!) and I love chatting about dogs, and in making myself seem like a friendly, normal person to a dog walker, they are more responsive to the idea of getting their dog over the excitement of horses and teaching it how to properly act around one.

    Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, you know?
    I don't see how you can assume that one responsible dog owner is going to be able to influence every dog owner that comes to the park?

    I am a dog lover. I let my dog run free when I can where it appropriate and safe. I have to believe there is a safety issue or the barn owner would not have stopped giving rides.

    I too deal with loose dogs on the trail and am respectful to the dog owner. But at the same time I can't guarantee that their dog who is not well trained enough to stay away from my horses hind end is not going to get kicked.


    Feel sorry for the kids missing out on riding camp this summer.



  5. #25
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
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    Off the cuff, having only read the title.... If trained horses don't spook, by the same token trained dogs should not chase horses. So there



  6. #26
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    Dec. 12, 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizbachfan View Post
    This is not about just horse owners in general. This is about an established business of horse back riding at the park being unable to operate because the dogs are chasing the horses.


    I agree he needs to work with the park and dog owners but putting loose dogs right next to the horse stable does sound like a recipe for disaster. Not every dog owner is going to have control of his dog.
    Well, the first line of the article said something like "fight heats up between horses and dogs, here's one man's story" which made it seem like it was not just neccessarily him, he just made the best story.

    Now that you explained the design of the park, I'd have to agree that that's some poor planning on the designer's part. But there are ways to work around it without alienating every group. Maybe there can be one area of the park that's a "leash zone" or something like that, where the horses regularly go through.

    Personally, though, I think there might be more to the story, in regards to the stableowner.



  7. #27
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    You are probably right. There is always more to the story. Probably a whole lot we are missing. Maybe the stable owner is a kook, or just a whiner. I don't know. Perhaps the dogs are not a bother. Just seems strange he would shut down his operation if there was no safety issue. Perhaps his horses are poorly trained. Too many unknowns. Perhaps we will have some one from CO chime in. Looking at map appears the dogs are right next to the horses, but who knows? I just see an issue if horses and free dogs are sharing the same park space no matter how well trained both are.



  8. #28
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    Dec. 12, 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizbachfan View Post
    You are probably right. There is always more to the story. Probably a whole lot we are missing. Maybe the stable owner is a kook, or just a whiner. I don't know. Perhaps the dogs are not a bother. Just seems strange he would shut down his operation if there was no safety issue. Perhaps his horses are poorly trained. Too many unknowns. Perhaps we will have some one from CO chime in. Looking at map appears the dogs are right next to the horses, but who knows? I just see an issue if horses and free dogs are sharing the same park space no matter how well trained both are.
    Personally, I think his operation may have been failing anyway (most of the trail-ride stables in my area are long gone...too much insurance, and too many stupid people) and this is just the "reason" for it. But that's just my own private musings, not basing that on any sort of fact.

    I see how it can be an issue too.....all the dogs will never be trained, all the horses will never be bombproof. I just think that the separation, if it needs to occur, can be gone about in a different manner. Maybe, since there isn't fencing right now and who knows when the budget for it can occur, the emphasis can be more on education.

    Most people have no idea how to interact around horses. I have non-horsey friends who will walk into the barn whispering, thinking that a normal voice will startle the poor fragile beings. My boyfriend was working on his car alarm while I was grooming my steady eddy trail horse, and set it off. Scared the s*** out of both me AND my horse! But the funny thing is that it did not even cross my boyfriend's mind, not even slightly, that the horse might be startled by the car alarm. My horse didn't bolt or anything, just spun around to get a good look at the screeching car with a couple big snorts thrown in, but all my boyfriend had to say, with a startled look on his face, was "Well, my dog doesn't care!" Same with the people who pop open umbrellas at horse shows...they just don't KNOW.

    So let us, as responsible horse owners, work on KINDLY educating people how to act more safely around horses. Because people have usually had either no experience with them at all, or they have experienced them in the context of a well-broke trail string pony (Or, you know, that 16hand black stallion that tried to buck them off. ) or a police horse, both of which are not really accurate representations of most of the horse community.



  9. #29
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    Aug. 12, 2010
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    Westford, Massachusetts
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    Spooking because a dog is running down the side of a trail is one thing and horses who make their living as rental trail horses should be able to handle seeing a dog. If the dogs are really chasing and barking at the horses, that's a different story and dog owners are incredibly irresponsible if they allow that to happen.

    The horse I ride now, an OTTB, has some fox extensive hunting experience in his history. He is perfectly fine with dogs running around his legs, running around near where he's working, lying all over the ground around him (he's careful not to step on them) and even barking at strangers and wildlife. I doubt he'd tolerate a dog chasing him and threatening him, however, I don't know how you could expect any prey animal to accept that with aplomb.

    My cattle dog used to think she had to herd any large animal she saw, so she was on a leash 100% of the time anywhere I walked her where there might be horses, including a local state park that allows both off leash dogs and horseback riding. She might have been allowed off leash, but it wouldn't have been responsible for me to actually have her off leash. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. On a piece of property that everyone shares, you have to be a good citizen, if your dog cannot behave decently around the other users of the area, it has to be on a leash. Seems obvious to me.



  10. #30
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    I agree with JSwan. Dogs can pack up in a matter of MINUTES and stop listening to the humans. And yeah, a horse might kick if one or ten come at it, but that won't always stop the dogs from doing massive damage in the process. When I was growing up a neighbor's gaming horse was maimed by a group of local dogs-people would let them out because hey, it's the country, they packed up and attacked the horse while she was riding. There's a reason we shoot dogs chasing things. And that doesn't just mean livestock and wildlife--they could easily maim and kill a kid.

    If they're going to have an off-leash policy, it needs to be fenced.



  11. #31
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    Dec. 13, 2005
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    Strasburg, PA "Just west of Paradise"
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    If they're going to have an off-leash policy, it needs to be fenced.
    The off leash parks near us are all fenced. One even segregates dogs by size and weight. One of the big problems with these parks is that many owners can't control their dogs on lead let alone off. Even though our horses have been exposed to our dog, new dogs present new challenges. Horse will react to a new horse in a herd, so I am not sure how one would "train" a horse not to react to a strange dog.



  12. #32
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    Apr. 12, 2010
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    Why isn't the off-leash area fenced already?

    Am I crazy for thinking it's a bad idea to have an off-leash area that ISN'T fenced?

    I'm an owner of one of those bag doggies that would most definitely chase a horse, or a cat or a squirrel or anything else for that matter. I'd never, ever, ever even consider taking him to a dog park that wasn't fenced.

    I really can't find fault with the dog owners or the stable owner. Sounds to me like blame falls squarely on the shoulders of whoever thought an unfenced dog park was a good idea.

    That being said...even after it's fenced I'm sure the dogs will be lining up at the fence line to bark at the horses. That, I think, is something a rental horse (presumably safe for a beginner or child) should be able to ignore.



  13. #33
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    Nov. 12, 2009
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    New England
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    In our town we have a leash law, which loosely translated, "If your dog is not on a leash then the dog must be under your control at all times".

    The local AC has both horses and dogs and has very low tolerance for owners who let their dogs run unsupervised in a shared area. The biggest offenders are the "vacation" people who don't think the law applies to them. Apparently not to bright to begin with if they let their dog loose in an unfamiliar area.

    My horses are used to dogs but if there is a dog that starts to run across the field/park for the intent to chase, things could go south pretty quick.

    I agree with the other posters that there is more to the story than what is printed.



  14. #34
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    I've got one that will double barrel any dog bothering him...maybe I should loan him out!
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  15. #35
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    Oct. 21, 1999
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    Rochester, NY
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    This is a hack stable, where people with absolutely no experience riding can come and have a trail ride on a "pretty horsie." They can't be expected to have the knowledge to handle some of the experiences horse people take for granted.

    On the other hand, I did some Googling, and found a couple of reviews.
    http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR..._Colorado.html

    Sounds like an "interesting" wrangler.
    Originally Posted by Alagirl
    We just love to shame poor people...when in reality, we are all just peasants.



  16. #36
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    Apr. 4, 2006
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    An American Living In Ireland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    I have yet to know a horse that would let a dog merrily grab a hind pastern w/o some "natural" consequences

    Tamara in TN
    Actually I gallop a chestnut TB mare who jogged the entire way around the track with trainer's Yorkie barking and nipping at tail, hocks, and pasterns. She never batted an eyelid. Drove me insane however. Tried running him over and he still wouldn't leave her alone. On my second lap someone took dog in. Trainer was like, well he has to learn. I was thinking he could borrow one of mine. He would have learned the word punt in a hurry!

    She would have no issues on a trail string!

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  17. #37
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    Jul. 15, 2005
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    Cambridge Springs, PA
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    My Appy will stomp with his front feet at dogs. Usually the hind end is not involved because he will turn towards them and pursue them.

    When he was younger he was trotting around, feeling good, out in his paddock and my dog went in the paddock and was not chasing him but wanting to trot along with him like, "Hey this is great... we're running together!" Uhm. No. Toby turned and pinned his ears, snaked his neck and started chasing Buster. Buster exited the paddock with a quickness and a "OMG" expression. He has never gone back in the paddocks! LOL

    Toby will tolerate the dogs, but if they get to bouncing around near him he'll posture aggressively towards them. The dogs seem to understand the cross species body language quite well.

    There are loose dogs in my area but none of them chase livestock. I expect that is because the ones that do are either killed by the livestock or shot by people. I live in a very rural area. Most loose dogs stay away from my place because Buster isn't friendly to strange dogs. I have a underground fence which he respects.

    I think horses should be trained not to spook at dogs just being dogs, but dogs should not be allowed to chase horses either. Since you can't guarantee that everyone bringing their dogs to the dog park has trained their dog well, then it should be fenced and preferably somewhere away from the stables.
    www.hogbackhillfarm.com



  18. #38
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    May. 11, 2009
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    It's a public place, which is precisely why the dogs should be leashed or contained especially if they are causing problems for other people in the area.



  19. #39
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    Dec. 12, 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louise View Post
    This is a hack stable, where people with absolutely no experience riding can come and have a trail ride on a "pretty horsie." They can't be expected to have the knowledge to handle some of the experiences horse people take for granted.

    On the other hand, I did some Googling, and found a couple of reviews.
    http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR..._Colorado.html

    Sounds like an "interesting" wrangler.

    Yeah, he sounds like a real gem.



  20. #40
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    Oct. 8, 2002
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    Maryland
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    Wow, he's a real winner, sounds like.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.



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