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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2007
    Posts
    79

    Default First time breeding, Deep horn, and using sperm from late stallion...help please!

    This is somewhat complicated but I'll try to keep it short and understandable....
    I lost my stallion December 15, 2010 due to complications from an inguinal hernia surgery. Luckily, right before he passed (as in, 30 minutes before) they were able to harvest his testicle (I believe thats the right way to say it) and get some 'happy juice'. Supposedly you are lucky if you get even one dose, I was able to get 2 1/2 doses from my boy It has been recommended to use deep horn insemination so I would therefore have 6 - 7 doses. The semen analysis says 47% normal sperm, post thaw I believe averages at 50%.
    I have finally found "the chosen one" and I am taking her to the NC State equine health center for a breeding exam middle of march to make sure she will work. The mare has had 2 babies in the past, 11 years old, really beautiful mare. My stallion already has several babies on the ground, so I know he was capable of it.
    My question is, does anyone have any experience w/ this kind of situation? I know it is quite rare, but some good stories would really help. I'm so scared that the mare will not get pregnant at all, and the one thing that has been keeping me going since his death is the thought of having a baby to continue his legacy
    Or any experience w/ deep horn insemination. Advice as to the best feed for broodmares, supplements, etc. Again, it's my first experience w/ breeding and I want to make sure to do everything right!
    Thanks for your help! Good luck to everyone breeding this year!
    "This inauguration feels like the first date with a really great guy after an eight-year dysfunctional relationship with a loser who spent all my money."



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    4,582

    Default

    My biggest piece of advice for anyone using any frozen semen is to find someone who is very experienced in breeding with frozen. We only do deep horn insemination when using frozen, but make sure you ask the person doing the breeding if they are familiar with it.
    It is a great idea to do a pre-breeding work-up on the mare; it should definitely include a culture w/cytology and a uterine biopsy.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  3. #3

    Default

    Immunal supposedly helps mare fertility prior to breeding them.

    I don't know much about deep horn insemination but good luck!!



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2007
    Posts
    79

    Default

    The procedure will be done at NC State's Equine Health Center in Southern Pines. My stallion was in ICU at the hospital for a month, so I figured it would come full circle if his baby was born due to the work done at NC State.
    "This inauguration feels like the first date with a really great guy after an eight-year dysfunctional relationship with a loser who spent all my money."



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,488

    Default

    Pregnancy rates don't decrease until below 100 million progressive sperm, so in your situation, I would probably try a pretty small dose the first time if your straws are small enough to accommodate that.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 20, 2008
    Location
    Beautiful Western Washington
    Posts
    1,342

    Default

    Phew, I dont know what to say but good luck , my stomach would be in knots about getting a pregnancy!
    www.windhorsefrm.org and on Facebook too!
    Where mares rule and Basset Hounds drool!



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2004
    Posts
    1,806

    Default

    My advice? Run AWAY from NC State Equine Health Center!

    3 mares:
    Mare number one, very experienced broodmare, always caught first time, 11 years old, 3 tries with (one frozen, two fresh) and no pregnancy.
    Mare number two, maiden 6 year old. Two tries with fresh, no pregnancy.
    Mare number three, 10 year old with two prior foals, both conceived first try. Three tries fresh, no pregnancy. Also ended up with a lot of complications because of stuff the vets and students messed up.

    Tried different stallions, all with good motility, and one with extremely good motility and pregnancy rate. Spent countless dollars on tests and treatments for the mare who was messed up by the school.

    Next year with a new vet:
    Mares one and three caught the first time, mare number two was not leased again.

    Next year with another vet:
    Same story. One and three caught on the first try, and one with a stallion with low fertility.

    And this year, you guessed it! Everyone caught first try with no trouble whatsoever!

    Plus, the stallion was hurt on the phantom through no fault on his own. Even the people supervising were like "Oh, yeah, whoops. Shoulda caught that. The bill will be X amount"

    Barb Seigel is good, and I've heard good things about Fernando Cardenas. But I will never, ever recommend NC State for any breeding ever again.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2007
    Posts
    79

    Default

    Coppers Mom - Where would you recommend? I'm in southeastern VA. I have had nothing but awesome experience w/ NC State on several occasions, but its my first time doing any breeding w/ them. Do you know what vets were used (you can PM me). Thank you for the advice!
    "This inauguration feels like the first date with a really great guy after an eight-year dysfunctional relationship with a loser who spent all my money."



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,488

    Default

    The best vet for frozen semen in VIrginia is Dr DelVento at Apex Equine. A bit of a drive for you, but worth it for important, limited semen.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2004
    Posts
    1,806

    Default

    I love State for everything else. For example, last year my friends had a mare who had a massive, malpresented foal. The vets there were awesome, and I'm positive they saved her life on several occasions. Afterwards, the farrier (sorry, can't spell his name) worked wonders on her feet to keep her from having any further complications. But for breeding, it was an absolute disaster, and I know a couple people have had the same problem. I don't know if it's that they're not sure, if they're unorganized, or if they don't have enough mares for the students to practice on, but I would never use them for breeding again.

    Are you going to have her bred in VA? Or NC? Because I'm really only familiar with NC repro vets.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2007
    Posts
    79

    Default

    I'm open to going anywhere within a reasonable distance, and 'reasonable' for me is more than most b/c it is such an important breeding for me. I will check out Dr. Delvento, thank you for the reference. NC State is about 3 1/2-4 hours for me.
    "This inauguration feels like the first date with a really great guy after an eight-year dysfunctional relationship with a loser who spent all my money."



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2003
    Location
    Oxford, MD USA
    Posts
    1,409

    Default

    With that few sperm cells, you might want to consider more advanced techniques such as ICSI , where only 1 sperm is put into an ovum.....



  13. #13

    Default

    I dont know the vets where you live, but as far as I am concerned the only vets I will use for breeding are the ones who do deep horn. You need to get real repro vets, therios. Make sure they do deep horn and do it well. Often times they will have lots of cow experience before they started on horses, since repro technology there is way ahead of horses. They will be the ones that have lots of ET expertise as well.

    Your numbers are fine.
    I have given my poor vet 15%, even 10% semen and have babies to show for it, on not even full doses, but using deep horn, and perfect timing with U/S.

    Are you too far from Ocala? Dr Miller is great.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 10, 2007
    Posts
    79

    Default

    What is ICSI? I tend to be a very 'involved' horse owner (I actually moved into the Ramada for a month while my stallion was in the ICU) so I like to discuss everything w/ the vets. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I was able to get to know them quite well while there. They are all therios. I am a good 10 hours from ocala, if not more, so definitely not an option.

    It would be nice to hear from someone who collected a stallion via testicle harvesting before the stallion died, and to know the breeding results. But again, I appreciate the advice it's giving me a lot of hope!
    "This inauguration feels like the first date with a really great guy after an eight-year dysfunctional relationship with a loser who spent all my money."



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
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    4,582

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Popularity View Post
    What is ICSI? I tend to be a very 'involved' horse owner (I actually moved into the Ramada for a month while my stallion was in the ICU) so I like to discuss everything w/ the vets. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I was able to get to know them quite well while there. They are all therios. I am a good 10 hours from ocala, if not more, so definitely not an option.

    It would be nice to hear from someone who collected a stallion via testicle harvesting before the stallion died, and to know the breeding results. But again, I appreciate the advice it's giving me a lot of hope!
    We have collected semen from harvested testicles, not before death, but because of castrating. The trick is to not contaminate the semen with blood while you are trying to extract it from the epididymis. If the numbers you reported above are accurate, then obviously the semen wasn't contaminated and the numbers do sound quite good. For that point on the semen is no different from any other frozen; how it was collected isn't going to affect the breeding. All of the stallions that we have collected epididymal semen on for freezing have gone on to successfully settle mares.

    I'm not familiar with NC State, but the main thing with a teaching institution is to verify who will actually be managing and breeding the mare. There are often very good and talented veterinarians working at universities, but sometimes they aren't the ones who will be doing the work; students have to learn somehow. That is the first thing I would verify. The second is how they will monitor the mare (should be around the clock, w/ ultrasounds every 6 hours). I was recently shocked to find out that one of the top therios in the country, at a major university that is at the forefront of equine reproduction does not ultrasound mares overnight for frozen semen breedings. So I would definitely verify how the mare will be managed.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2007
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Popularity View Post
    What is ICSI?
    http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/erl/erl_icsiserv.htm

    Colorado State does it, and New Bolton in PA as well.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    4,582

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdeboer01 View Post
    http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/erl/erl_icsiserv.htm

    Colorado State does it, and New Bolton in PA as well.
    Equine Medical Services in Missouri offers it too.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



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