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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 27, 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    41

    Default Breeding pony to horse

    Yes, I am talking about using a surrogate broodmare, but here is the question. We have a very fancy small pony that has the confirmation and movement of a horse. She has been a very successful pony in the show ring. She has had 2 pony foals. My question is 2 fold. Has anyone crossed a small pony to a large horse? What size did the foal end up? We would like to end up with a small jr hunter if this is even feasible.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,733

    Default

    Not a good idea. Really not a good idea if you want a horse as an end result. And there are many, many reasons why the offspring of a small pony shouldn't develop in the spacious womb of a horse, so surrogacy won't help your cause. This just isn't wise. And I hope she has the confOrmation of a horse. Otherwise, I'm curious as to where she was confirmed.
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2004
    Location
    Virginia. We Do Ponies!
    Posts
    12,159

    Default

    If you want a horse as the result, use the surrogate.

    Never breed a small to a horse. Too dangerous. Bad idea.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    136

    Default Successfully done

    JCoyle,

    I bred two 12-hand pony mares A.I. to my 15-hand stallion. Both mares had several pony foals before. Both mares foaled easily and with no complications whatsoever, the foals are coming three this spring. One offspring is close to 13.2, the other remained just bigger than her dam at just about 12.2.

    I would not do it with any greater a size difference than I did, I don't know what size stallion you are planning to use but that is the main factor of the equation.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    3,373

    Default

    I have a friend/client who has an extremely well bred and super fancy imported mare that I sold her, and she is expecting a Popeye K baby from the mare this year, but this was done by embryo transfer. The mare is a small, thus the need for embryo transfer. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the results of this cross!
    Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
    Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,113

    Default

    I think it's better to breed a mare (horse) to a pony stallion. A friend did this and created a beautiful warmblood pony.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    43

    Default There is research on this topic:

    From The Horse January 1, 1999
    http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=276

    excerpt from Fetal Development and Foal Growth:
    Back to fetal development. The size of the fetus at birth is often determined more by the mare's uterine capacity than by genetics, although genetics do kick in once the foal has been born.

    In one bit of research at Colorado State University, a Shetland pony mare was inseminated with semen from a draft horse stallion. The pony mare delivered a small foal during a normal birth, but the foal soon outgrew its mother once it was on the ground and nursing.

    Two papers presented at the International Symposium on Equine Reproduction held in South Africa in July also indicated that the mare exerts considerable influence on the size of the growing fetus.

    In one paper, a researcher from Poland--Marian Tischer, who studied embryo transfer foals--found that "irrespective of genetic makeup, the ultimate height of the horse is decided by nourishment during gestation and less so by the milk capacity of the mare."

    The second study was carried out by researchers in England who studied the influence of maternal size on fetal and post-natal development in the horse. They reported that, "Maternal size significantly affects fetal growth, presumably by means of limiting the area of uterine endometrium available for attachment of the diffuse epitheliochorial placenta."

    Once the foal is born, genetics and nourishment are highly influential in growth and development. A foal which has the genetics for large size can do considerable catching up in the first few months of life, particularly if it receives proper nourishment and has been properly nourished while in the uterus.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2004
    Location
    Virginia. We Do Ponies!
    Posts
    12,159

    Default

    There are about 23875901 threads on this already. Do a search.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,733

    Default

    Just for sits and giggles, the following photos are of a foal born to a Shire mama and by a small pony (Welsh) stallion. The mare owner hoped to make a Gypsy Drum horse (or some such thing) and it back fired in a big way. B/c of the excess space in the womb the little foal did not develop in the normal folded position and was born with terribly contracted extensor tendons in the front limbs. In the photos the legs may appear lax, but I assure you, they were immovable and absolutely frozen in their hyperextended state. Again, this is NOT a case of flexor tendon laxity. This foal had painfully hyperextended legs that were pulled into that abnormal position by excessively tight common digital extensor tendons. This only happens when the foal is not tucked up in utero. He was humanely euthanized shortly after these photos were taken.

    Please deliberate very carefully before putting a small pony embryo into a large mare.
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    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VirginiaBred View Post
    There are about 23875901 threads on this already. Do a search.
    And this is why I don't come to COTH very often. Rudeness for the sake of it. The OP asked a question. The first 2 answers just said BAD, BAD, BAD, but nothing to back it up. Really not that helpful. S/he is clearly asking for information.

    If you read what I copied from the article, it talks about using a large stallion and a small mare - what the OP wants to do. S/he said nothing about using a draft mare, but using a surrogate.

    It is entirely feasible for them to use a large pony/small horse to carry a pony/x as evidenced by research. Their own personal situation should be discussed with a vet. In any breeding endeavor there are multiple risks; of course one wishes to minimize those risks and can only try to educate themselves by asking questions. Nasty behavior does not teach people anything except not to ask the question.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
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    3,733

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by booboo View Post
    And this is why I don't come to COTH very often. Rudeness for the sake of it. The OP asked a question. The first 2 answers just said BAD, BAD, BAD, but nothing to back it up. Really not that helpful. S/he is clearly asking for information.

    If you read what I copied from the article, it talks about using a large stallion and a small mare - what the OP wants to do. S/he said nothing about using a draft mare, but using a surrogate.

    It is entirely feasible for them to use a large pony/small horse to carry a pony/x as evidenced by research. Their own personal situation should be discussed with a vet. In any breeding endeavor there are multiple risks; of course one wishes to minimize those risks and can only try to educate themselves by asking questions. Nasty behavior does not teach people anything except not to ask the question.
    Draft or not, the photos I posted above indicate a "possible" complication of a large mare carrying a small fetus. I consider this relevant information and it was intended to back up my first post, in which I said that she will very likely not get a small junior hunter from her intended cross and may not like what she gets at all. The OP will do as she pleases with the information. I have provided opinion, based on much experience, fact and photographs. I like to think I've answered her question to the best of my ability and I'm not sure how I earned the chiding you've given.

    And VB crosses TB's and ponies time and again and produces stunning ponies. Ponies, not little horses. She knows of what she speaks. Big time. That said, I don't see how telling the OP that oodles of information is at her fingertips if she does a search is rude. ??
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2004
    Location
    Nescopeck PA
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    1,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    This foal had painfully hyperextended legs that were pulled into that abnormal position by excessively tight common digital extensor tendons. This only happens when the foal is not tucked up in utero. He was humanely euthanized shortly after these photos were taken.

    Please deliberate very carefully before putting a small pony embryo into a large mare.
    Do you think this was a one time freak/example? I've not ever put a big horse to a small pony yet. But I really don't think that would be my concern. I've seen people cross small ponies to bigger horses (I've never bred anything smaller then a 13.3 hand pony to a 16.2 hand horse) and never any problems. In 2009 I bred a 13.2 and 13.3 hand pony to my stallion. I got one filly that appears to be heading to 15.1 (what I was breeding for) and a colt that is headed to 14.1ish (a pleasant surprise) no complications, foals were small, one mare bred back for 2011 to the same stallion.
    Maria Hayes-Frosty Oak Stables
    Home to All Eyez On Me, 1998 16.2 Cleveland Bay Sporthorse Stallion
    & FrostyOak Hampton 2008 Pure Cleveland Bay Colt
    www.frostyoaks.com



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,733

    Default

    I have seen more than one foal like the one pictured above, but he was the most severe. The issue here was the large mama, small stallion thing. When the opposite occurs, bigger dad to a smaller mare, there tend to be fewer problems. So, if the OP wants to breed her small pony mare to a horse I was suggesting that she allow the pony mare to carry the fetus, rather than putting her embryo into a large mare. Either way, the result of small pony mare x horse won't likely be a small junior hunter. If it did end up horse sized it could easily be 14.3, 15 hands and ability for 3'6" scope and step would be more of a gamble than if like quality horse to like quality horse were bred to create the foal. Did that make sense?
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Jackieblue, that was not directed at you. As you said, you provided information, which is what the OP asked for. You gave your viewpoint which I don’t disagree with in any way.

    However, I have no clue who Virginiabred is or what she does. If she had something to contribute other than Don’t do it, it is bad, we've discussed this before then why didn't she? Or post a link to an old thread? Or just ignore it. Not everyone has read this board from day 1 and knows all the answers and all the regulars and their backgrounds. And not everyone is very good at doing searches, so if this topic has been discussed in 23875901 threads already, then obviously more than 1 person has asked the question and didn't do a search either.

    Anyhow, this is precisely why I avoid this site because of all the off-topic sniping, and here I am involved in it, so I am just going to leave you guys to it and do my occasional lurking. Good luck to the OP in whatever you decide!



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2004
    Location
    Virginia. We Do Ponies!
    Posts
    12,159

    Default

    There have been countless situations over the years (and I do mean years) where inexperienced breeders have bred a small pony to a horse hoping to get a horse foal and complications resulted. Serious, fatal complications.

    I have heard more than I ever wanted to and as an experienced and long time breeder I always say - Don't Do It.

    And "BooBoo".................. suggesting to do a search isn't at all rude. There is valuable information already on this forum - but you have to do a search, like it or not. In fact, all of us should do a search before creating yet another thread that has been discussed ad nauseum previously.


    (Luckily, the OP said she was using a surrogate broodmare)
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist



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