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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 25, 1999
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    San Ramon/Castro Valley/Brentwood, California
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    Default Lets talk about videotaping without your knowledge...

    Those of you who coach and train...how do you feel about the lessons you teach being videotaped without your knowledge? Meaning...you are teaching, parents are watching and dad is videotaping the whole ride but you think all he is doing is taking pictures. Nothing I do or say is secret nor am I ashamed of it. But...I am uncomfortable being videotaped with sound without my prior knowledge. Just curious what others think about this...



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 17, 2003
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    5,702

    Default

    Goodness, really? I always try and get my clinic rides videotaped for my own later edification (my best learning tools between lessons) and I've never thought about a trainer being worried about it.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 15, 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
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    729

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    I would be pissed if my trainer had an issue with me videoing my lesson.Never come across a trainer who has an issue with it.



  4. #4
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    Nov. 7, 2008
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    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Default

    As someone with a nice camera who might offer to video a lesson for someone - I would personally never do it without running it past the people involved just to be polite, even if it was just for the rider's personal use. It's just manners, imo.

    (If it wasn't entirely for the rider's personal use - if there was some expectation of it being used commercially as a sale video or something of that nature, then I would definitely be clear about that and probably whip out some release forms just to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed.)

    As far as someone not wanting to be videoed - eh. I think it would be a case by case thing. Some people just aren't comfortable with it - I HATE being photographed/being on camera. Or if the trainer felt it would be distracting for a younger rider, because they'd be too conscious of being filmed. That's a valid concern also for some people.

    I do think it's rude to just whip out the camera and film without asking - even if everyone is totally fine with it, it feels kind of like an invasion of privacy to me or something. I dunno.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 28, 2008
    Location
    Chester County, PA
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    529

    Default

    Post a sign. No videotaping of lessons without permission from trainer.

    It is not about how we feel, it is about how you feel about it.
    *Every horse is a self-portrait of the rider....Autograph your work with excellence.*
    Supporting Nokotas www.nokotahorse.org
    Lipizzan's rock! http://rigitta.blogspot.com/



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2007
    Location
    Triangle Area, NC
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    6,723

    Default

    If it were me having those feelings, I'd take a moment of introspection to look into why.
    I uphold a philosophy while teaching that I never say anything in a lesson I wouldn't want the whole world to hear.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 15, 2007
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    591

    Default

    I think that as part of the learning experience, videotaping should be allowed as it's a valuable learning tool. I do think that people should ask the trainer what the policy is on sharing these recordings - especially with sound. If sound is included, it's like giving viewers a lesson for free - depending on the level of instructor, this may or may not be ok.

    I asked if I was able to record my lessons (because it's polite to do so) - and the only caveat is that if I share video, I have to eliminate other riders as much as possible. And, out of respect, if I post anything, I scrub sound from it.


    When giving lessons - I encourage people to record so that we can go over them later - but that's something that I discuss with students and parents before they start taking lessons from me so that they know what my policy is.

    Those are my 2 cents.
    "the waist is not a joint" I MUST REMEMBER THIS!



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 18, 2005
    Posts
    56

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    Since 2003 I have taped every lesson with sound that my daughter has had and religiously she would watch it on her way home from the lesson (an 1.5 hour ride for us). Not only did it reinforce what she had learned that day but by watching the lesson she was able to see for herself where she went astray - "aha" moments where the lightbulb went off. This process tremendously helped her progression in future lessons. I have found it to be one of the most beneficial tools a rider can have and it has certainly helped to make my daughter the rider she is today. I would not use a trainer that did not allow videotaping.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,740

    Default

    This and a discussion in a thread in the Eventing forum about a working student who was not hired because he would blog about his experience give me pause.

    It's too bad horse training has gotten to the point that people need to think about a watching "public." With YouTube and the comments posted around COTH about those videos, I see why horse pros are being wary.

    PetStoreJunkie has a good approach. But so much can look strange or bad when taken out of context. I think you need to be teaching for a long, long time before you can feel that *anyone* watching would "get it" and understand why the lesson went as it did.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 18, 2005
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    56

    Default

    It's all about trust = reputable trainers + reputable students. I would never dream of posting any lesson on youtube or any other public format....



  11. #11
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    Feb. 22, 2007
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    I would think it was a little rude if someone taped a private lesson without asking me first, but I wouldn't really care that much.

    A group lesson would be different though. I require the permission of everyone riding that day as some people may not be comfortable being filmed, and that will interfere with their comfort and ability to focus on the lesson. If I found out someone was secretly filming a ride in that situation I would be upset.

    I would not be happy if someone posted a video online without asking me though. I have nothing to hide, and people are welcome to come watch me teach whenever they want. But mvp is right, a lot can be taken out of context and damage can be done to a reputation before the pro in question even has a chance to respond.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2011
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    68

    Default

    I don't mind video taping for personal use. I don't think most lesson videos belong on utube. One of my friends posted a video of her horse in a training session with her trainer on it. Nothing "wrong" was going on but it wasn't the most flattering for either horse or trainer.. horse was learning a new dressage movement.. again nothing against her trainer but,meh.
    When I saw it online I called her (owner) and told her to remove it. Why ? Pretty simple, why have bad video or even bad photos of your horse all over the internet. It's like bad advertising yourself. Keep that stuff private,imo.

    Heard from the trainer later, she had no idea it was on utube and agreed with my thought process.



  13. #13
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    Mar. 15, 2007
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    (throw dart at map) NC!
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    Can I ask why you are uncomfortable with this?

    Very many people video tape their lessons. I videotape my clinics and many clinics hire a professional videographer in case the participants want to be taped (some state that personal taping is not allowed but only the videographer can tape, and that's another story). It sounds like this dad was simply videotaping on his camera and didn't realize that he did anything to upset you. My video camera is via my digital camera.

    I don't know of any professional who barrs videotaping - it is too useful of a tool. But I do know of professionals who ask that the videotape not be posted online or distributed. That's fair. You might want to casually thank the dad for videotaping because it can reinforce his daughter's lesson, but that you really require that he not distribute it or post in anywhere. I'm sure he'd understand.

    J.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
    Those of you who coach and train...how do you feel about the lessons you teach being videotaped without your knowledge? Meaning...you are teaching, parents are watching and dad is videotaping the whole ride but you think all he is doing is taking pictures. Nothing I do or say is secret nor am I ashamed of it. But...I am uncomfortable being videotaped with sound without my prior knowledge. Just curious what others think about this...



  14. #14
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    Oct. 2, 2001
    Location
    Greenville, SC
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    4,167

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    I don't mind one bit- it helps the student digest the lesson if they actually take the time to go and watch it after. Now having to hear myself is another story... I hate that!



  15. #15
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    Feb. 25, 1999
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    San Ramon/Castro Valley/Brentwood, California
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    Default

    I have no secrets and nothing to hide nor would I teach differently if I knew ahead of time. What I don't like is it being videotaped without my prior knowledge. I have no issue with private lessons being videoed for personal use. There is a trainer being sued near me for negligence, the lawsuit has caused me to re-think how I teach, what I say and how I deliver the message to the kids. I hate the fact I have to be so wary and careful, but that is the current state of the horse business where I am. My point is...ask me first before videotaping...nothing more, nothing less.



  16. #16
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    Sep. 21, 2007
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    SF Bay Area
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
    . I hate the fact I have to be so wary and careful, but that is the current state of the horse business where I am. My point is...ask me first before videotaping...nothing more, nothing less.
    If that is your preference, you may want to consider posting signs at the arena that state this as I think times have evolved so much that digital media is as common and integrated into life as hay in the barn. I would venture to say that most people would be happy to comply, but not think of asking first.

    As a student, it hasn't occurred to me to ask for permission -- I guess everywhere I go I see lessons being taped. I pay good money for my lessons, I want to be able to re-live them as much as possible to get the most out of them. I am a very "present" rider, but there are sometimes things that I feel I hear for the first time when I watch the video. And I've never had an instructor or clinician mention anything -- as a matter of fact, also being one who tapes friends' lessons, instructors would often say: "Did you get that?"
    "Reite dein Pferd vorwärts und richte es gerade.” Gustav Steinbrecht



  17. #17

    Default

    I charge extra for video lessons, if i provide the videographer. If the person videos themselves, no problem. Not sure why anyone would post a lesson on a public forum though. I suppose if i think about it, i would like to be asked before someone did that. Reason being that usually my students already know my philosophy and have had certain things explained, that might not be obvious in a taped lesson.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2008
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    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
    I have no secrets and nothing to hide nor would I teach differently if I knew ahead of time. What I don't like is it being videotaped without my prior knowledge. I have no issue with private lessons being videoed for personal use. There is a trainer being sued near me for negligence, the lawsuit has caused me to re-think how I teach, what I say and how I deliver the message to the kids. I hate the fact I have to be so wary and careful, but that is the current state of the horse business where I am. My point is...ask me first before videotaping...nothing more, nothing less.
    I don't think, for a professional, it's a BAD thing to want to be aware of when you're being videotaped - if for no other reason than it gives you an opportunity to make sure everyone is clear on what you consider acceptable use of the tape. (Is it okay to put it on Youtube, for example?)

    With local folks it's less of an issue, with a BNT they also have potential loss of income to consider if someone tapes them and then distributes that freely online - maybe they were considering putting out a professionally produced DVD or something, and now they can't because too many people feel they can get the same information for free from stuff on Youtube.

    Plus, for anyone - ANY media of you is, to some extent, an advertisement. It certainly influences how people see you and with editing programs being really trivially easy to use in many cases these days, you're not even 'safe' if something's on film, because it can be edited to give a very different impression of what you're like as a person or a trainer.

    (For example, an extreme: A client routinely tapes lessons over the course of a year. The trainer is good, very occasionally yells if the client is about to do something seriously stupid or dangerous, but is otherwise good mannered and polite and generally presents information with the right blend of patience and persistence. For some reason, the client and the trainer have a falling out, and the client goes through and snips all of the bits of the trainer yelling and sticks them together, and then posts it online saying "this is what the lessons were like ALL THE TIME." Other people in the area see it, and just like that, some damage is done to the trainer's reputation. It's an extreme, yes, but given some of the threads here on COTH, it's quite easy to see something like that happening.)

    I would not have a problem at all with a professional who had signs posted that said something along the lines of "taping or recording lessons is permitted with prior agreement from the trainer and anyone else using the arena at the time of the lesson."



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb. 25, 1999
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    San Ramon/Castro Valley/Brentwood, California
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    Default

    Kdow said: (For example, an extreme: A client routinely tapes lessons over the course of a year. The trainer is good, very occasionally yells if the client is about to do something seriously stupid or dangerous, but is otherwise good mannered and polite and generally presents information with the right blend of patience and persistence. For some reason, the client and the trainer have a falling out, and the client goes through and snips all of the bits of the trainer yelling and sticks them together, and then posts it online saying "this is what the lessons were like ALL THE TIME." Other people in the area see it, and just like that, some damage is done to the trainer's reputation. It's an extreme, yes, but given some of the threads here on COTH, it's quite easy to see something like that happening.)
    This is exactly the concern. Video can be altered so that the whole story is not being told. I truly have no issue with video for personal use, I had my own lessons taped but my coach always knew and he also knew they were not shared publicly. Once I submitted a portion of an old tape for a clinic, I called him first to ask his permission and muted the sound. As a pro myself, I would not want any other pro to be portrayed in a bad light when the whole story isn't being told. So, this lawsuit in my area has certainly caught my attention in a big way. As I said, I have absolutely nothing to hide, anyone is welcome to watch at any time, I encourage it. Videotaping, that can be altered, is another story completely.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2009
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    Rootown!
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    Default

    My trainer actually loves when I tape my lessons because she thinks it's very helpful I don't really give her a heads up other than I'll show up and just sort of mention it in passing. I would never ride with someone who wouldn't let me video my lessons because it can be so helpful!
    No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill
    For Hope, For Strength, For Life-Delta Gamma
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