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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2010
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    281

    Default What do you guys think?

    I am not looking for arguments in this post- so, please keep it on the subject.

    The following are recent pics of my TWH mare. It is hard to tell if she was gaining weight because I see her everyday, so, I snapped these with my camera phone tonight.

    From looking at before and after pics, to me, she looks a whole lot better. She still has weight to put on, but she is getting there.

    What do you guys think? Also, I have had her for what, close to a month now? Based on how she looked before vrs. how she looks now, does it look more like a "she was not fed properly" or do you think a sickness could pull her down to how she was?

    I saw her last in November- in her coggins in November, she looked ok as well. So, from then, until when I got her, is when she lost all the weight. Is there a sickness that would pull her down that quickly and then allow her to gain it back since she has been with me?

    I haven't done anything dramatic with her diet. I haven't started her on the corn oil yet- I didn't want her to gain TOO quickly...but as of now, she gets a little over a 3 qt. scoop of grain per feeding (2 times a day, for a total of a little over 6 qts.) and then a pad of coastal and two to three (heavy) pads of O/A x 2 a day. The grain she is on is Seminole Wellness Perform Safe- which is a 12% protein, 10% fat, 9% starch pellet.

    We got all the blood work back- vet said her values were good- and she came back as a weak positive on the EPM. I asked him what he thought in regards to her weight gain and he said he thinks it could have been a combination of being sick and not being fed properly- but I would like your opinions.

    I know EPM (and other illnesses) can cause muscle to deteriorate, but before, she looked plain SKINNY, ribs showing, etc.

    Pics taken about a week before she came to me:

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w...ne/sierra8.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w...ne/sierra6.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w...ne/sierra5.jpg

    Pics taken this evening:

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra7-1.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra6-1.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra5-1.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra4-1.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra3-1.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra2-1.jpg

    http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/w.../Sierra1-1.jpg



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2009
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    1,871

    Default

    Well she could have been sick or starved, who knows. You can't expect miracles in just a month but I would like to see a little bit more improvement in that time if she were my rescue. It sounds like you are feeding well. Perhaps now she can tolerate free choice hay?
    I am more concerned about how messed up her her whole hind end looks. Is she going to get more disgnostics to confirm EPM after she gains some weight?
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
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    22,204

    Default

    Why do you keep coming back? Did the vet do any kind of neuro exam?

    Here's the first thread started on January 2nd. Note that the horse was not with her at the time (one month ago): w.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=286981

    Here's another thread started on January 19th:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289374

    Go away.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Nov. 7, 2010
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
    Well she could have been sick or starved, who knows. You can't expect miracles in just a month but I would like to see a little bit more improvement in that time if she were my rescue. It sounds like you are feeding well. Perhaps now she can tolerate free choice hay?
    I am more concerned about how messed up her her whole hind end looks. Is she going to get more disgnostics to confirm EPM after she gains some weight?
    There is not really much as far as more diagnostics for EPM- other than treatment. Vet is making call to Bayer for Marquis to try and see if they can donate any Marquis for treatment. If not, I will have to do the $100 treatment for a couple of months to see if that helps her.

    If neither treatment works, then I will probably have x-rays done. If it is not EPM, I am thinking possible back issue as when he was pressing along her spine in the hind area, she seemed like it really bothered her. At that time, he told me it could be inflammation in the spine associated with the EPM, OR, it could be an injury back there.

    I am just waiting to hear back from him as to what Bayer says and then we will go from there.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
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    Default

    She certainly looks like she has picked up some, but still a ways to go.

    In some of the photos she has an "aura" about her. Camera phones will do that . . . or maybe it's a mystical emanation. Where's that psychic (psycho) lady who reads horse auras by photograph?
    Click here before you buy.



  6. #6
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    Nov. 7, 2010
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    281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    She certainly looks like she has picked up some, but still a ways to go.

    In some of the photos she has an "aura" about her. Camera phones will do that . . . or maybe it's a mystical emanation. Where's that psychic (psycho) lady who reads horse auras by photograph?
    lol Yes, she seems to huh? She certainly is a lot more perky and her usual self!

    She has always hated dogs and will literally chase after them, trying to stomp them. So, the barn owner said yesterday that she tried killing the dog, broke into a gallop. So, this is good.

    As far as the auras, lol, it does look like that. But I think it is the camera phone- they kind of create a dream like state with the fuzziness.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2004
    Location
    Louisville, KY
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    3,215

    Default

    She has gained some weight, but she is a sick horse. Start the other treatment now. The economy is awful for everyone. Bayer isn't going to donate expensive meds. They wouldn't even if the economy was booming. The world doesn't work that way. Start her on the meds you can afford and if her neuro symptoms aren't improved in another 2-4 weeks end her suffering. Just because she found the energy to chase off a dog doesn't mean she's recovering. It just means she has the strength to try and defend herself.

    If she were mine, I'd put her down. I would have done it when I first saw her and agreed to take on responsibility.
    Strong promoter of READING the entire post before responding.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 15, 2002
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
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    Default

    Where in Fl are you?
    I love cats, I love every single cat....
    So anyway I am a cat lover
    And I love to run.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 25, 2007
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    Default

    I see some improvement and a month isn't a long time for weight gain, even for a hard keeper who is 100% healthy. Take it from someone who knows.

    How old is she? And what is her turnout/exercise or what was it before you got her? Her hind end looks obviously very weak and her stance is odd, suggesting EPM or another issue perhaps. I am not a vet, but that looks like the biggest area of concern.

    If she were mine I would skip the corn oil and do rice bran or a fat feed like Legends Omega Plus which is rice bran based. I know there are opposing views but I do feel the corn oil for my arthritic guy was more inflammatory and caused him more stiffness. He is much better on the Legends Omega.

    Have teeth been checked and what is her worming situation? Assuming vet covered both but just asking to be safe.

    I certainly would not put her down! Sounds like you care for her and want her well. I do see progress but it seems to me she needs free choice hay - preferably alfalfa IMO, and just more groceries. Beet pulp? Cubes? Something to boost her health and weight gain overall. Good luck with her and hope her situation improves!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2002
    Location
    USA
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    Talking

    Yes, she has gained some weight - but I, like Patty, am very concerned about the extreme muscle atrophy over the hindquarters. She also seems to stand with her hind end tucked up underneath her (especially evident in the last recent pic posted, labeled "Sierra1"). That would make me think a back issue. Has the vet palpated her back?

    Also, in some of the photos, (It may be the angle the photo was taken from), but it looks like her right hind is rotated somehow? Does she (can she) stand square? It's evident in all your "before" pics and in pic Sierra4 & Sierra2 of the "after" pics.

    I understand it's difficult to tell if the horse is gaining weight since you see her so often - but can you use a weight tape on her once a week or so? To get some sort of objective assessment?

    Best,
    Taryn



  11. #11

    Default

    her hind toes...
    they are worn off straight across and in a weird way match her stifles

    as if she cannot take a full stride and lands on these toes wearing them off,stubbing them

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2006
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    Stoystown, PA
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    Default

    She does look like she's put on some weight, but I REALLY don't like what's going on with her hindend. She looks very uncomfortable. She needs to be hauled to the nearest hospital or university so you can get a definate diagnosis. It would be money much better spent! If you can't afford it, then maybe you need to start thinking about letting her go.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Maybe I missed it, but did you get the EPM test results back?

    I said before and in PM, but I'll say again here, her stance really reminds me of my TWH when he was at his worse. His diagnosis was Kissing Spines (vertebrae rubbing together). He stands tucked under like that to relieve the pain on his back, and in those pics it really looks like that's what she's doing too.

    We did the low starch/high fat diet a month or so before the diagnosis and then injections right after, so I don't know if the diet helped for sure, but I'm keeping him on it. I have him on Vitamin E and Magnesium too. When the injections wore off fast I just put him on Firocoxib. With everything together, the atrophy went away and he's pasture sound but still can't be ridden.

    I know you said money was an issue, but can you try some pain meds and see if she starts standing more normally to see if it's a pain issue or not?



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2010
    Posts
    281

    Default

    GoldenGirl: Her EPM test results came back- but we were using the test as means to rule it out. She came back as a weak positive, but according to the vet and my research online, most horses do test positive for EPM. What drugs did you use that your horse showed improvement with?

    Also, I forgot to answer the other poster...but yes, she can stand square.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2007
    Posts
    126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    She has gained some weight, but she is a sick horse. Start the other treatment now. The economy is awful for everyone. Bayer isn't going to donate expensive meds. They wouldn't even if the economy was booming. The world doesn't work that way. Start her on the meds you can afford and if her neuro symptoms aren't improved in another 2-4 weeks end her suffering. Just because she found the energy to chase off a dog doesn't mean she's recovering. It just means she has the strength to try and defend herself.

    If she were mine, I'd put her down. I would have done it when I first saw her and agreed to take on responsibility.
    Exactly my thoughts as well. Mare obviously has something serious going on with her. Problem with putting weight back on her is that the extra pounds are just going to make the rear end issue worse IMO.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2005
    Location
    Upper Midwest
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    Default

    I haven't read any of your other threads, but she looks absolutely miserable, like she can barely hold her head up and she's all curled up and very uncomfortable behind. I am not sure I see any real weight gain, either, sorry. Yes, to answer your question, I check with a weight tape frequently if I am monitoring weight gain.

    Can she get a complete feed, high in fat, like Triple Crown Senior and free choice hay/alfalfa? I have no idea what her dietary issues are, hence my question.

    [Edited to add, I see you have her on a high fat diet, nevermind the Triple Crown Senior suggestion].

    From all the pictures, she looks like she is in pain and is suffering. Her eyes look dull.

    Has she been:
    wormed?
    had her teeth done?
    been examined by a vet beyond a blood test for EPM?
    Last edited by TrotTrotPumpkn; Feb. 3, 2011 at 12:52 PM.
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

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  17. #17
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    Nov. 13, 2007
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    NW Louisiana
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    Default

    I don't see much, if any, weight gain either. And I also noticed that she is standing with her pelvis tucked. She looks VERY uncomfortable behind.



  18. #18
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    Default

    I think the horse is going to be in even more pain as she gains weight.

    Sorry.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling



  19. #19
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    Jun. 23, 2006
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    Stoystown, PA
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    Default

    I agree with JSwan... sorry...

    A spinal is the ONLY definative way to diagnose EPM and there again if they get any blood in the sample it will show a false positive. The blot test was a waste of money. You are wasting your money unless you take her to a hospital or university that can diagnose her properly.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blondyb View Post
    What drugs did you use that your horse showed improvement with?
    He's on Previcox right now because it's easier on his stomach than Bute. I was hoping it would help him build muscle and it did, but when I take him off of it he's almost as bad as he used to be. So unless a miracle happens, he'll probably be on it the rest of his life and will be a pasture pony.

    It took an x-ray to do the diagnosis and then back injections to start the improvement for us, but maybe you could see if Bute or Previcox/Equioxx would make her more comfortable? If your vet will give it to you (it's for dogs so some won't), 57mg of Previcox is less than $1/day. It takes a few days to build up in the system.

    She doesn't look like she's gained any weight in those pics to me, but she looks a little brighter.



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