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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    Default First I said I'd NEVER have a grey in my breeding program ...

    And then I ended up with a grey stallion ...

    And then I said (probably as recently as the last week!) that I'd never have pinto in my program either ...

    Here is my new mare - Art Dancer by Art Deco out of a TB mare, approved Old NA with a score of 105. I LOVE this mare - she is so kind and has jaw dropping movement on her and is very well put together as well

    This mare got her head caught in a fence as a weanling / yearling - long time ago, and she has a fused vertebrae in her neck (or fused vertebrae - plural - not really sure) and as a result, she has atrophied muscles from her poll on down. So - while her neck / topline may not look like it possibly should, its injury related and not conformational at all. She cant turn her head at the poll to look at you - she needs to pivot her entire body instead. So - while she was completely rideable


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsRqerrNFC4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsRqerrNFC4


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10_Z5r6wVgE&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10_Z5...eature=related


    I think the general consensus was that she tries so hard to please - its not fair to ask her to come into a frame and bend through the poll, when its physically uncomfortable or impossible for her to do so ...

    Here are the pictures I just took of her this morning. I thought that was was longer in the back than ideal but she really ISNT that long at all - I think it was her weight and how she wasn standing in previous pictures ... and she has a phenomenal trot in a very lofty, animated, suspended way ...

    And she has a lovely shoulder as well - I think its just the way the white cuts it on the opposite side doesnt make it look as good as it does from this side ...

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ArtDancer2.jpg


    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ArtDancer3.jpg


    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ArtDancer4.jpg


    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ArtDancer5.jpg


    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ArtDancer6.jpg

    Oh! And the bare spot on her bum was where Old NA wanted to see her brand ... and she needed to be clipped ...

    So - I am debating breeding her to Guaranteed Gold (which will make the foal 3/4 TB, 50% chance of tobiano and 100% chance of a dilute colour) or to Winner - 50% chance of tobiano and 100% chance of grey as he is HZ grey and 50% TB with the balance a mix of Hanoverian / Trakehner / Arab. I thought initially that she needed a shorter coupled stallion so was going to go with GG but now I am not so sure

    Here is Guaranteed Gold:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...CC-Jun10-3.jpg

    and here is Winner:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...er-Nov10-3.jpg

    GG would produce more of a hunter / event foal and Winner a jumper or hunter foal - possibly event as well.

    If this was your mare and your decision - who would you go with and why??

    Thanks a bunch!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 20, 2007
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    535

    Default

    I wouldn't breed a pinto to a grey. Grey/white pintos always seem to look raggy (to me anyway) and I would think be less desirable for color lovers. Also I would prefer a 3/4 TB as a cross



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 15, 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
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    891

    Default

    I think GG has a better body type for her, stronger hip and top line.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2007
    Location
    NW Louisiana
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    5,281

    Default

    If you're looking to sell this fol, GG. I know severl people who wouldn't buy grey pintos, but who would buy grey OR pinto. So if the bby got the pinto, it might be much hrder to sell.

    Sorry for the spelling issues. Stupid keybord.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2007
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    538

    Default

    I would go for GG. While they have similar body types, he also would her hip and length of back while I'm not as sure about Winner. Also, if Winner passes on that head, it will be extremely difficult to sell the baby as a hunter since visual appearance does play a huge factor in the hunter realm.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2010
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    1,871

    Default

    A good horse has no color I always loved pintos, so can't comment there, but I also use to say "no grays" and got a lovely gray broodie last year

    I also vote breed to GG, fwiw...



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    36,511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hampton Bay View Post
    Sorry for the spelling issues. Stupid keybord.
    LOL, save yourself the time and put that in your siggy
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2006
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    WNY
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    Default

    Just on the basis of color, I absolutely would not breed her to the gray. Gray pintos look weird, especially once they've grayed out all the way. When they get wet, they look gross and dirty because you can see the pink and black skin under the hair. Maybe not the best reason in the world, but there you are .



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    Guaranteed Gold (which will make the foal 3/4 TB, 50% chance of tobiano and 100% chance of a dilute colour)

    First, I breed Paints so come to this question with a certain bias. Second, I always look at the possibility that the foal may be sold at some point, even if not my original plan. I like the looks of GG combined with her better anyway but the above two reasons would make me lean toward him.....dilute colors in my world sell well. 3/4 TB's do well. Tobianos do well. A 3/4 TB tobiano in a dilute color should be highly salable should you ever need to do so. OR a 3/4 TB dilute color (in case you get the 50% solid chance) also should do well. Gray plus tobiano ....you will loose the coloring eventually and only be able to see it when the horse is wet. And getting to fully grayed out will give you some very funky looking stages. And I don't like this cross as well just looking at the mare and Winner.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2007
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    NW Louisiana
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    LOL, save yourself the time and put that in your siggy
    Why didn't I think of tht? Will do!



  11. #11
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    Oct. 23, 2002
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    Kent,WA USA
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    Default

    I breed a grey to a pinto every year and pray to the color gods that I will not get both genes on the baby. The cross is off the charts incredible so it's worth the color risk to me as the quality of the horse is beyond words.. That said, if the mare was hz for grey I might chicken out...I'm not a fan of grey pintos either so might go the dilute route...esp since it looks like their types would be good together.
    Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
    www.crestlinefarm.com
    Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    I breed a grey to a pinto every year and pray to the color gods that I will not get both genes on the baby. The cross is off the charts incredible so it's worth the color risk to me as the quality of the horse is beyond words..
    Very interesting Andrea that you feel this way, with such a nice stallion as Palladio ... ... and that even with him as the sire, a grey tobiano would NOT be the desired result at all

    Definately food for thought.

    Out of curiosity - do you have any Palladio offspring that have been grey that you can post pictures of? Or does anyone have some really nice grey tobiano babies? Ive seen Paints and Pinto's with that pattern but no really nice WB's or WB crosses at all



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 15, 2004
    Location
    Lancaster, PA, USA
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    my gray tobi Santa Cruz mare o/o a pinto For The Future mare. (she is 1/8 Paint and 7/8 WB)
    at age 4
    http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...t=Scan0003.jpg
    at age 7
    http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...utchKnob09.jpg

    she was born a black and white pinto and I hoped she would stay black...but no such luck.



  14. #14
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    Default

    That is a NICE mare Chris ... and I sure dont mind her colouring in either of the pictures, but might be a whole 'nuther ballgame when the grey part totally whites out over time

    Thanks for posting them



  15. #15
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    Feb. 6, 2002
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    North Carolina
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    Default

    TC said: "So - while her neck / topline may not look like it possibly should, its injury related and not conformational at all. She cant turn her head at the poll to look at you - she needs to pivot her entire body instead. So - while she was completely rideable"

    Am I the only one thinking giving birth and caring for a foal might be a very frustrating and possibly painful experience for this mare??



  16. #16
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    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Still here ~ not yet there
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Limerick View Post
    TC said: "So - while her neck / topline may not look like it possibly should, its injury related and not conformational at all. She cant turn her head at the poll to look at you - she needs to pivot her entire body instead. So - while she was completely rideable"

    Am I the only one thinking giving birth and caring for a foal might be a very frustrating and possibly painful experience for this mare??
    Giving birth shouldn't be a problem...that happens at the other end

    Yeah, caring for the foal as in nuzzling, etc, might be alittle awkward; I imagine day to day living might be somewhat of a challenge for this mare, no matter what she does.

    But with eyes on the side of her head, she shouldn't have to turn her head to look at you unless you are directly behind her and raising a foal would be easier on her than riding. Luckily she is nice enough to be bred. Art Deco has sure shown to be a very nice broodmare sire.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
    Location
    Mirabel, QC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Limerick View Post
    TC said: "So - while her neck / topline may not look like it possibly should, its injury related and not conformational at all. She cant turn her head at the poll to look at you - she needs to pivot her entire body instead. So - while she was completely rideable"

    Am I the only one thinking giving birth and caring for a foal might be a very frustrating and possibly painful experience for this mare??
    The injury is well before the area supporting the weight of the pregnancy, so it actually might not be a problem at all.
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
    Facebook | YouTube |Twitter | LinkedIn



  18. #18
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Ummm ... she had 3 or possibly 4 foals before I got her, 2 of them were presented to Old NA and went premium AND she was owned by vets that made the breeding decisions with her.

    She is perfectly okay to deal with on a day to day basis. She eats equally well from the ground, mid height, up high. Over her 12 or so years dealing with this she has learned to compensate very well for it and it doesnt seem to bother her in the slightest

    I just dont think a career whereby she is asked to go in a frame and bend at the poll would be at all fair for her. This way she can carry her head however she wants to do so

    If you look at that one picture of her standing and turning her head entirely around to the side - she's doing that on her own. No one is forcing it. Does she look stressed or in pain to you at all???



  19. #19
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Waterford, VA USA
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    TrueColours - I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the mare's movement as "jaw dropping"..... But she seems like a nice girl otherwise.

    Good luck with her!
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2002
    Location
    Kent,WA USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    Very interesting Andrea that you feel this way, with such a nice stallion as Palladio ... ... and that even with him as the sire, a grey tobiano would NOT be the desired result at all

    Definately food for thought.

    Out of curiosity - do you have any Palladio offspring that have been grey that you can post pictures of? Or does anyone have some really nice grey tobiano babies? Ive seen Paints and Pinto's with that pattern but no really nice WB's or WB crosses at all
    It's just a personal preference of mine...but I don't really like greys particularly and don't really care if we get pinto so just would rather that we don't get both on the same horse, lol...but that said we bottom line just don't care about the color so if it's a good cross we do it. So far it's worked out really well. There is a grey Palladio mare out of an Agincourt/Pik Solo mare that was lovely as a foal and we hear is growing up nice. We have the full brother here and it looks like he'll be headed to the big ring and we're actually considering bringing that dam back here as the two from that cross have been very upper level.
    My grey TB Regular working hunter champion April Sound (JC Ruthie Dear) has had stellar Palladio foals and the grey one is coming four this year. Those are off the charts and the grey is in a class by herself...

    So far none with both grey and pinto but TB is in foal for April so we'll see, lol!

    Pacifica CF -Palladio x April Sound
    Platinum CF -Palladio x Allegra

    To keep things accurate from a color standpoint though...I regularly cross horses that both carry recessive chestnut and hope to get bay...we often get left with fabulous chestnuts due to weird wives tales about chestnuts...but again, our program doesn't really factor color into the equation so if the types work then the cross works for us. It's amazing that my last three personal riding horses (besides Palladio,lol) have been chestnut mares that were passed over by buyers due to stupid stereotypes. They were a Jupiter, an Ibikus (Inschallah/Furioso II) and a Palladio...all were fabulous, talented and quiet and would have sold much faster if they were bay......so can't say that hoping for non-grey is anything out of ordinary...we just don't love buying shampoo that much and already buy plenty with a few pintos around!!! :-)
    Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
    www.crestlinefarm.com
    Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio



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