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  1. #1
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    Default Discussion: TB type WB stallion X TB mare= improved TB type foal or disaster?

    A friend and I were discussing the concept/breeding goal of of producing TB type horses with improvement of conformation, movement, jump, by using modern, refined WB stallions to nice TB mares. I have known breeders of both event horses and hunter/jumper horses that have mentioned such breeding goals.

    So, I have heard, "it doesn't work... two refined horses= poor developed foals... to big of risk" and such. My friend on the other hand was very adamant that breeding a TB to a WB of similar type will increased the odds of a nice foal IF the goal is a TB type foal. Said something about "similar phenotypes", but she couldn't explain what that is.

    So, can we have a discussion of this type of breeding goal and what things to look for in stallion and mare?

    Specifically, we started this conversation, by my friends suggestion of breeding my mare to Boss VDL. So, for an example of the type of stallion for discussion purposes here is a link that includes conformation photo, test scores, and first foal crop evaluations:
    http://hengsten.kwpn.nl/beeld/Offspr...tions_2010.pdf

    His website:
    http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/120...n/boss-vdl.htm



  2. #2
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    If you breed 2 horses of different type you risk getting a horse who is put together by committee. Breeding similar type horses will HELP ensure you get something that is more like your goal. Not that breeding two dissimilar horses NEVER works out, sometimes it does. Sometimes you get a nice blend, sometimes you get ahorse that is more like one parent than the other. But often you get a mess.

    You don't want to try and get a huge change in phenotype in one generation. You are correct in IDing what you want from a breeding and then picking two good individuals of the type you want to produce it. You do not want to pick a horse that is MORE refined than you want because you might indeed get one "too refined". But that goes back to not breeding horses that are too dissimilar. Don't count on a stallion or mare making up for anothers shortcomings. Pick only horses that are superior breeding animals not ones just because they are fertile.
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  3. #3
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    Default

    Can someone explain "phenotype" and it's application in breeding?



  4. #4
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    It can work.

    This is my TBxWB mare. She's out of a VERY nice TB mare, sired by a Holsteiner.

    The mare was an exceptional TB mare and the stallion used is a little bit heavier, but not terribly old style.

    The mare DOES play a huge role. Yes, I think breeding programs can be successful using TB mares but the truth is they have to be REALLY nice TBs. I've seen TB crosses sired by the same stallion that are decidedly average at best.

    My coach rides a very fancy imported Hanoverian. He's out of a nice TB dam (so yes, they are doing it in Europe too). Morocco is registered Oldenburg and licensed BWP, Old-NA, and RPSI and competes at FEI levels in Dressage. Lotus T is out of the same TB mare that my mare is out of. He is registered and licensed AHHA. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there.....

    Take a very hard critical look at a TB mare. Most of the OTTBs you'll find on the track won't do anything to help your breeding program - BUT the right mares will be very valuable to help you accomplish your goals.

    I will say that for breeding event horses though, I think you need even more blood... I love my horse. She's wonderful. She's over 50% TB. She's SLOW SLOW SLOW.



  5. #5
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    How does one rationalize a poor outcome of a TB-style WB stallion on a TB mare, when TB stallions are put to TB mares all the time? That makes absolutely no sense. Or, I simply do not understand the question LOL

    The stallion Gatsby is out of a TB mare, by Gonzo I. So, minimally 50% TB, some % more though I don't know what it is. I've seen his offspring out of TB mares and they are FAR from disasters. Far.
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  6. #6
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotyp...pe_distinction

    What you see is only part of the full equation. For some animals they breed very true to thier own type and some don't.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyracing View Post
    Specifically, we started this conversation, by my friends suggestion of breeding my mare to Boss VDL. So, for an example of the type of stallion for discussion purposes here is a link that includes conformation photo, test scores, and first foal crop evaluations:
    http://hengsten.kwpn.nl/beeld/Offspr...tions_2010.pdf

    His website:
    http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/120...n/boss-vdl.htm

    He looks really nice!!!



  8. #8
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    Simply put - you are trying to produce nice TB type horses that are 3/4 TB or 7/8 TB, right? Sounds like a goal to me, and yes, there are lots of nice animals out there that are mostly TB.



  9. #9
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    I must say that I am confused as well.
    I just thought that a quality WB of breeds x y and z were a fairly "natural" match to a quality TB?

    If I were looking to breed, I would naturally look for things in any stallion that I hoped to improve on my mare (realizing that it is all a big crapshoot). The stallions similarly bred get would probably be the deciding factor.

    But on the other side of the coin I can easily call to mind several breed crosses that don't generally compliment each other. And yes, those are taking one extreme breed and matching it up to the polar opposite breed.
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  10. #10
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    I wouldn't think that all WB stallions would work well with TB mares. Some of them lack the same things that Tb's tend to lack. Then some WB stallions do really well (best) with Tb mares.



  11. #11
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    I've been pleased with the results of our foals out of out TB mares. They are both due to foal full siblings to their last foals this spring. At that point I will be able to see what I liked and what I would like to improve. We sold one and my daughter has decided to keep last years filly, who I will bred once my daughter is in college. By the time she is done she will be ready to go back to work with my daughter. I look forward to one day crossing her with a WB stallion, whether he is full or TB crossed. I personally love the WB/TB cross
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  12. #12
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    Two refined horses = poorly developed foal. That was a bit of a silly statement. Means all TB's are poorly developed?

    I think maybe the biggest thing is to go see your stallions if possible which in the States is a bit more difficult. And be honest about the improvements you need to make to your mare. If your mare has had a few foals to evaluate that is very helpful. Even if those foals were TB you get an idea of what she throws. And the saying is true, if you don't want a carbon copy of your mare, don't breed her. But that's for any mare, not just TB's.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

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  13. #13
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    Until we know if the target is a Dressage, Hunter or Jumper horse, the question is impossible to answer.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy.smaga View Post
    Until we know if the target is a Dressage, Hunter or Jumper horse, the question is impossible to answer.
    Very true Andy and something I assumed people would already have that goal in their heads. For any of you who have seen the videos of my warmblood/TB cross I can tell you she is very much her mother's daughter. My TB mare has a fantastic front and more knee action than a typical TB. I do not think she would ever be a mare for breeding hunters. I want to breed jumpers and so that is my goal and have started with a mare with the type I want. And saying these things I'm not saying I got it right but I did start with goals and we shall how it goes.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  15. #15
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    Default

    I
    f you breed 2 horses of different type you risk getting a horse who is put together by committee. Breeding similar type horses will HELP ensure you get something that is more like your goal. Not that breeding two dissimilar horses NEVER works out, sometimes it does. Sometimes you get a nice blend, sometimes you get ahorse that is more like one parent than the other. But often you get a mess.
    If this were true, the classic Welsh x TB cross wouldn't be as tried and true as it is. Unless there is something about crossing two pure breds, as opposed to a part-bred crossed with a pure bred, which eliminates the risk?



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissyfoo View Post
    I must say that I am confused as well.
    I just thought that a quality WB of breeds x y and z were a fairly "natural" match to a quality TB?

    If I were looking to breed, I would naturally look for things in any stallion that I hoped to improve on my mare (realizing that it is all a big crapshoot). The stallions similarly bred get would probably be the deciding factor.

    But on the other side of the coin I can easily call to mind several breed crosses that don't generally compliment each other. And yes, those are taking one extreme breed and matching it up to the polar opposite breed.
    Irish Draught(and ID Sport horses and even Connemaras) to TB is one good example.

    Here's a 2 YO ID X TB
    http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp32...73142823968338
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  17. #17
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    What you are talking about is the breeding goal that created the Selle Francais. The French didn't care whether the TB was top or bottom; what they cared about was the creation of a "TB with substance". The major non TB stallion that was used seemed to have been Vas y Donc, and he was described as Demi Sang or Anglo Norman. What I think he probably was was TB mixed with what is now called French Trotter. Then they added the Anglo Arab which was historically the homebred French version of the TB. Their breeding started about the same time as the creation of the English TB--in the reign of Louis XIV. As guns brought a different type of horsed warrior, horses were created to match the new warfare.

    It worked for them. It can work for us.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jan. 29, 2011 at 11:02 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Phenotype is the outcome. It is what you see. The final expression of the genes. Genotype is the genetic code, it is what is there, but can't be seen. Not all genes express themselves, so genetics can be passed on to offspring that don't represent themselves in the parent. The reason we talk about this is the basis of your question. We can't look at what we see and think that is what we are going to get. We must pay attention to what genes will be passed on. So, most here know I don't think TB mares should be bred to WB stallions and this is a good example why. The stallion you have pointed to describes the best mare as one that needs blood. They are referring to a WB mare not a TB. They also are not talking about the physical type, but the action and mind. Indoctro/Nimmerdor is not going to give you TB type. The Silbersee adds hotness and this stallion likely breeds with it.

    Andy asked the right question, to what end. If you are breeding for a Hunter, this would be the absolutely wrong choice of stallion for hunters unless your mare has a very good mind. He does throw flat movement, but flat in the WB way.

    All true warmblood(not out of TB mares) will improve bone and topline. You could however get a WB body on TB legs, and that could be a disaster. The more blooded the stallion breeds in TYPE the safer you are that you won't get this problem, which is seen often with crosses. You must ask how they breed(genotype), not how they stand(phenotype).

    Tim
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    Irish Draught(and ID Sport horses and even Connemaras) to TB is one good example.

    Here's a 2 YO ID X TB
    http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp32...73142823968338
    Happy healthy horses. Very sweet pics!

    I have a soft spot for Connemaras and am a HUGE fan of the Irish crosses in general. Sane, sturdy and IMO very cute.

    Course, that may be my own breeding at play-I'm an Irish cross myself
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  20. #20
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    Tim we get where you are coming from but you'd be surprised that TB mares are not as taboo as they once were. I'm not seeing this huge problem of big warmblood bodies on TB legs that I've heard for ages. Actuall went to see a stunning stallion yesterday that has the same bone as my TB mare. They are getting lighter and more modern, the stallions. Anyway doesn't matter. I'm not breeding for the olympics and I'm not breeding crap. And I do have clear goals in mind as should any breeder.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



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