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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 17, 2002
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    West Point, Ohio, USA
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    Talking A question about color.

    Color genetics have never been my strong suit but I admit to being fascinated by color combos and outcomes. I had a gray TB mare I bred (7yrs ago) to a bay stallion and I ended up with a chestnut filly. I sold the mare a few years later and she was bred by her next owner...to a chestnut stallion. The result was a bay colt who turned gray.
    I now own a liver chestnut TB mare who will likely be bred to a TB stud for a racing baby (my family trains). I've always dream about breeding her to a fancy WB stallion someday...knowing that will never really happen. It's fun to look though.
    To my question....
    A friend has a really nice paint stallion that he uses for team penning. He's a stocky horse but very correct. I've watched him compete for years and thought how cute he'd look tooling around a xc course. My MIL bred her draft mare to him years ago and the result was a super fancy, yet level headed gelding that she foxhunted, hunter paced and ponied off of. Being that the stud is so close, if I ever wanted to breed to him I know I could (the race stallion is in FL and I'm in OH)....
    I'm just wondering if any of you that really know your stuff could enlighten me on the chances that a baby by this stud and out of a liver TB mare would actually have color? I really doubt I'll ever get to breed her other than for racing but I'm entertaining myself on a freezing cold day when I'd rather not head outside!
    If I had the opportunity, I'd probably do it. I'm most concerned with disposition, train-ability and conformation over anything else but I think it would be interesting to think about what color might pop out.

    TIA for humoring me!

    A few pictures:
    This is the only picture I can find on my computer of the stud:
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/jenarby/john1.jpg
    Not that you can tell much from it.

    My MIL's baby by him:
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...by/jan8-20.jpg

    My mare:
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...SC_0776-01.jpg
    Last edited by jenarby; Jan. 23, 2011 at 03:43 PM.
    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 30, 2005
    Location
    England
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    10,475

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    No idea about the colour. Just wanted to say that your mare is stunning!
    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!



  3. #3
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    Apr. 2, 2010
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    Wellington/Ft.Lauderdale, FL
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    Just wanted to say your mare is lovely!
    Samantha Werner

    There is something about riding down the street on a prancing horse that makes you feel like something, even when you ain't a thing. ~ Will Rogers



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 20, 2008
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    The Barn :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenarby View Post
    I'm just wondering if any of you that really know your stuff could enlighten me on the chances that a baby by this stud and out of a liver TB mare would actually have color?
    50% chance of paint-patterned color. The mare's color (so long as she's solid and not a paint) will not contribute to any major patterns.

    IMHO, there are a lot of really nice stallions that carry color guarantees that might also suit what you are looking for... or buy one in the pattern and color you like!
    RIP Adriane, aka Eyesontheground, 6/4/83-9/14/09
    Proudly owned by:
    Veronica II (Vienna Waltz/Woermann)



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2006
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    Lucama, NC
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    It is impossible to breed two chestnuts and get EITHER a bay or a grey. A grey MUST have one grey parent and a bay must have one non-chestnut parent! So something is not correct about the first part of your post.

    Without knowing if the stallion is homozygous or heterozygous for the tobiano (paint pattern) gene, you cann ot say if you will get that color or not. If he is homozygous, all foals will have tobiano paint coloring. If not then you have a 50% chance of getting the paint coloring



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 10, 2009
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
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    Just wanted to say lovely TB mare!

    As sniplover said, 50% chance. You could find a homozygous tobiano for guaranteed color. I'm breeding my tobiano mare to a homozygous tobiano just because I don't want to risk a solid, and maybe I'll get a homozygous baby



  7. #7
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    Where does the OP indicate that this horse is or is not homozygous? THe only indication of what he prodcued colorwise was the pic of the MIL's foal that was a tobiano paint, so he could be either hetero or homozygous, no way to tell without either 1) a DNA test or 2) if he has been KNOWN to throw solids. If #2 then he is heterozygous and a 50% chance of a paint colored foal. But without knowing for sure his genetic status you cannot say 50%.



  8. #8
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    Oct. 17, 2002
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    West Point, Ohio, USA
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    shawnee...sorry, I wasn't super clear about the mare I previously bred. The gray mare was first bred to a bay stud, resulting in a chestnut filly. The same gray mare was bred (by a new owner) to a chestnut stud which resulted in a bay colt that turned gray. Sorry about that.

    Snip...this is really just a hypothetical question as I'm fairly certain my husband would say no way....*IF* I was ever to breed to this paint I honestly would not care about what color the baby ended up being. I like this stallions conformation, he's a cute mover and he's very nice to ride and be around. I was just curious how common it is for a solid, non paint mare to have a colored foal when bred to a paint stud.

    The foal we had by him was out of a gray perchie/tb cross.
    I have seen one other foal by him who was out of a mostly white paint mare and that colt was a black and white paint.

    Thanks for the compliments on my mare. She's a very special girl!
    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10



  9. #9
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    Apr. 20, 2008
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    She didn't; I'm assuming he's heterozygous for tobiano. It's unlikely that she will convince the stallion's owner to test him if he has not already been tested, so the simplest assumption for her is to assume that he's heterozygous and will give her a 50% chance. On the off chance he is homozygous, then it's just a bonus when the foal is born.

    ETA: we were posting at the same time. The percentage is totally up to the stallion, in this case, and tobiano is something you can ship some hair follicles off to a lab and have them test for this gene. If he carried two copies of tobiano (homozygous for the pattern), you'd have a 100% chance of a pinto foal. If he carries one copy (all you need to exhibit the coat pattern; this is called heterozygous), you'd get a 50% chance. Solid horses are homozygous for 'non-tobiano' (I'm simplifying here), so you mare can not contribute to the color. There are other things at play, like base coat color and sabino patterning that influence the amount of white a foal displays.

    Make sense?
    Last edited by sniplover; Jan. 23, 2011 at 04:28 PM. Reason: add info
    RIP Adriane, aka Eyesontheground, 6/4/83-9/14/09
    Proudly owned by:
    Veronica II (Vienna Waltz/Woermann)



  10. #10
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    Oh sorry I thought you meant you sold the BABY who was chestnut and then she was bred to a chestnut and had a bay that turned grey! Again no way to know for certain on the paint without knowing if he is homozygous or not however.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawneeAcres View Post
    Where does the OP indicate that this horse is or is not homozygous? THe only indication of what he prodcued colorwise was the pic of the MIL's foal that was a tobiano paint, so he could be either hetero or homozygous, no way to tell without either 1) a DNA test or 2) if he has been KNOWN to throw solids. If #2 then he is heterozygous and a 50% chance of a paint colored foal. But without knowing for sure his genetic status you cannot say 50%.

    True. I don't know that info because I've never asked! Exactly why I said I'm not educated in color or color breeds.
    I've ridden all kinds of horses but know most about TBs so I appreciate the info.
    If and it's a huge if...I had the opportunity (well meaning I won hubby over) the result baby would be for us and not for a resale. Not likely to happen as much as I'd love to do it.
    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 2, 2004
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
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    For future reference:
    Foal Coat Color Calculator
    http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp
    INCONCEIVABLE!



  13. #13
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    Hey Shawnee....I love your stud! That canter...wow, looks like you could sit on it all day.

    Ok, for fun then, using him as an example....50-50 shot of color with my mare?

    Sorry...I think this stuff is kind of interesting. I'm sure you all are tired of explaining this stuff to people like me!
    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenarby View Post
    Hey Shawnee....I love your stud! That canter...wow, looks like you could sit on it all day.

    Ok, for fun then, using him as an example....50-50 shot of color with my mare?

    Sorry...I think this stuff is kind of interesting. I'm sure you all are tired of explaining this stuff to people like me!
    No, my stalion is homozygous so you have a 100% chance of appaloosa color regardless of the color of the mare. Now he is a chestnut so if bred to a chestnut then you WILL get a chestnut based appaloosa



  15. #15
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    Oct. 27, 2010
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    Do you know if the Paint stallion is homozygous (has two genes) for tobiano? He would have to have two tobiano parents for this to happen (and the chances would vary depending on the homozygous/heterozygous status of his parents). If he does have two tobiano parents AND he inherited a tobiano gene from each he would sire 100% tobiano pattern foals. If he only has one tobiano gene (either had two tobiano parents but didn't inherit it from both OR had one tobiano parent and one that was not so only inherited the one tobiano gene) he would be heterozygous and will have a 50/50 chance of siring a tobiano marked foal.

    If his owner hasn't had him tested you could ask her to....it's $40 at UC Davis and would be info for her for breeding, esp if he is HZ tobiano...she could guarantee tobiano pattern foals. It's a simple hair test (mane hair with roots attached) and takes a couple weeks most often.

    Your mare is homozygous for the recessive red gene since she's liver chestnut. You don't mention the color of the stallion....if he's chestnut or sorrel you would have a red colored foal (chestnut or sorrel). If he's a black based color (black, smokey black, bay, buckskin, dun, grulla, blue roan, bay roan, etc..anything with a black mane/tail normally) what you would get would depend on whether or not he's homozygous for black (has two black genes, would always pass one so your foal would be a black based color and would also be heterozygous for black...one black from the stallion and one red from your mare) or heterozygous for black (one black and one red...would give your foal a 50% chance of being black based and 50% chance of being red based). A black based foal doesn't have to be black...it can be any of those colors mentioned above due to modifiers such as cream, agouti, dun and roan. Those modifiers are all dominant (except cream..it is an incomplete dominant) so would show up if they are present. Agouti can be present in your red mare as well as it only effects black pigment and wouldn't show in her but could pass to a foal (my old palomino stallion was homozygous for agouti and although bred t a bunch of black mares he never sired a smokey black or a black...all of his black based foals were buckskin or bay).

    I have three homozygous tobiano mares here (one is also HZ for black and has no agouti) and just recently added a homozygous tobiano two year old stallion....taking much of the guess work out of foal color predictions. For example.....all of the foals sired by this stallion will be tobiano, all of them from these three mares will be tobiano and, if I breed him to them, all of their foals will be homozygous tobiano. One mare is chestnut so the foals from those two will be chestnut HZ tobiano...always. One mare is HZ black and is non-agouti...if he has no agouti their foals will always be hetero black and HZ tobiano. If he has an agouti (or a pair) then I'll get hetero black HZ tobiano bays. The third mare is HZ tobi, hetero black, ? agouti (has one...she's bay) and their foals will be black, bay, chestnut and HZ tobi.

    Probably have you totally confused at this point....short answer....if he's hetero for tobiano you have 50% chance of tobiano foal. If he's HZ for tobiano you have 100% chance of tobiano foal.



  16. #16
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    Thanks cowhorse! I had to read that a couple of times but I THINK I have it now!

    This owner is not a "breeder" per se. He just has a really nice horse that he competes on that happens to be a well mannered stallion. He's bred him to some mares that belong to friends but otherwise does not advertise or anything. He's an older guy who kept this horse intact because the horse is very polite by nature and rarely steps out of line. He's kept at his own farm and he has no mares. I'm not sure if he ever did the test but I can certainly ask him....just for curiosity's sake!
    Thanks again for all the info!
    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10



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