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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 8, 2004
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    The Great, uh, Green (?!?!) North!
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    4,044

    Default Adoption and Ownership

    There's a missing horse listed in this forums that has me thinking (see missing STB/Owner).

    Facts as presented...
    - Lady adopted horse nearly 18 years ago, adoption group maintained ownership
    - adoption group openly admits that she has been, until this past year, stellar with paperwork and updates.
    - clearly there has been some upheaval in her life, 2010 paperwork not filed.
    - Adoption group follows up.

    All of the above is sane and makes sense. Here's what I have a problem with.
    - they've openly posted that they hired a PI
    - they have the HS aged daughter's info
    - and, this is the one that got me, they're treating it as a stolen horse situation.

    I'm sorry, but this person has been stellar for 18 years. With this kind of behavior, it just underlines why you need to get ownership even when you adopt instead of purchase. Clearly the poor adopter has had something major happen, and is now being treated like a thief. I appreciate that the adoption group is concerned about the horse, and have no problem that they're looking for it, but somewhere there has to be some discretion and empathy...
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2005
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    2,069

    Default

    This is exactly why I would never deal with a rescue that maintains ownership. I passed on a couple of horses I was really interested in because I would have to pay fair market price but would never own the horse. It's such a scam and a lot of rescues are way too big for their britches.

    Edit to add- I just read the post in Missing Horses. These people sound more like stalkers than a legitimate rescue!
    "Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care." ~Jimmy Buffett



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    18 years! and the adopter still doesn't have ownership....sheesh...maybe the horse died! And the "rescue" is claiming it was stolen? They have way too much time on their hands and no concept of ownership.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Curb Appeal View Post
    This is exactly why I would never deal with a rescue that maintains ownership. It's such a scam and a lot of rescues are way too big for their britches.

    Edit to add- I just read the post in Missing Horses. These people sound more like stalkers than a legitimate rescue!

    THIS!! I won't adopt due to this kind of thing. And if this is bad just wait until the "ownership" changes to "guardianship" under the law!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    11,309



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 8, 2004
    Location
    Rolling hills of Virginny
    Posts
    6,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Curb Appeal View Post
    This is exactly why I would never deal with a rescue that maintains ownership.
    Agreed, Curb.

    If I pay someone money for an animal, I sure as heck am not going to agree to let them retain ownership of it.

    There are some facilities that will transfer ownership after a year and I can deal with that, but to NEVER give ownership to someone after all those years, and then to claim the horse is stolen? Oh, HELL no!
    Homeopathy claims water can cure you since it once held medicine. That's like saying you can get sustenance from an empty plate because it once held food.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 2010
    Location
    Western NY
    Posts
    1,878

    Default good point Ibex

    Thank you for making a good point. The terms (or lack thereof,) of adoption can come back to bite you. Ask me how I know.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
    Posts
    11,019

    Default

    This demonstrates how foolish the "adoption" concept is when applied to livestock.

    You "adopt" children and create a legal relationship that is permanant. The very use of the word in the context of the possetion of animals is a seriously flawed concept.

    You "purchase" or "lease" livestock creating a relationship that is permanant until it changes. This has been the case for at least several millenia. The system wasn't broke; but some folks felt a need to change it.

    Wasn't all that bright, eh?

    G.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 24, 2005
    Location
    Pullman, Washington
    Posts
    2,256

    Default

    That's ridiculous. Maybe if it comes down to it the fact that she has been paying its bills for 18 years means something to the authorities?



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,524

    Default

    I copied the post here to illustrate how insane it is. (Bolding mine.)

    This is a long shot:
    I work for the Standardbred Retirement Foundation. We follow up on our adopted horses for life, and we're having an issue. This is a long shot, but I'm hoping the internet can help us out. We have a 21 year old standardbred mare named Sea Bari. She was adopted by [redacted] in 1993. Because she has had the horse for so long and was always good about paperwork, she is down to an annual check. Unfortunately, she never returned the 2010 follow up form. We've been trying to track the horse down ever since and have even enlisted the help of a pro bono private investigator. All we've gotten is a series of dead ends. [redacted] went through a divorce. She was originally from [redacted] but I also have a [redacted] address (now sold). I found her FB, but haven't gotten any replies. A Google street view of her ex-husbands house showed a police barricade out front, so that's not a good sign. She has a high school aged daughter and I do have the name of the school. Of course, they won't release a minor's information to some random woman from a horse adoption agency. The mare is a chestnut (which makes her stand out from other STBs) with a big white star. She's about 15hh. I have contacted every rescue in NY and nobody has seen her. I'll have to find an old photo and scan it in. I was hoping someone on here might know of the horse. At this point, she may not even be alive. If she's found, we will take her back and retire her here, as per our adoption contract. We can and will send law enforcement to deal with the case as needed. This is currently being treated as a stolen horse case. We are the legal owners and are trying to get her back under our supervision.

    http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r..._n/seabari.jpg

    Thank You!
    Point 1 -- Google street view is NOT up to date. The stree view of my house is about 2 years old.

    Point 2 -- No KIDDING they aren't going to give a kids informationto some crazy off the street.

    Point 3 -- The phrasing of this is insane. She's 21. Of course she might have died. OF OLD AGE.
    Last edited by ExJumper; Jan. 20, 2011 at 06:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct. 24, 2005
    Location
    Pullman, Washington
    Posts
    2,256

    Default

    Wow, those people have some interesting ways of doing things. At this point if I missed the paperwork because of a major life upheaval, I'd be afraid to get back in contact with these people because they'd still take my horse.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    Lorena, Texas
    Posts
    4,114

    Default

    We maintain ownership for two years and do follow-ups. Part of me would love to follow-up for life, but the reasonable part of me knows we can't. Our adopters do agree either return horses to us if they cannot keep them or follow our rehoming procedures (that allows them to rehome their adopted horse under certain circumstances). We LIKE getting updates after the two years - I have adopters who adopted years ago who drop me a note/photo/whatever, but we don't require it.
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2005
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
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    4,182

    Default

    And this is why so many of us won't "adopt" a horse without ownership being signed over. 18 years and you're panicking? Seriously? Even if we insist on using human-related terms, that's not adoption; that's fostering. It would be one thing if they just said they wanted to get back in touch with her, just to make sure all was well, but STEALING? I hope if anyone does know the woman, they warn her to change the horse's name and never contact the "rescue" again, as otherwise she's going to lose her horse. Also, she might want to do something about the fact that they apparently want to stalk her daughter.

    I'll keep getting mine off the open market, thanks. Plenty of horses out there need rescuing who aren't owned by organizations with nothing better to do than stalk some poor woman who has always taken good care of the horse and just gone through a divorce. I don't suppose it's occured to them that, even other than the stress of a divorce in general, there are other excellent reasons why a woman might split from her husband and leave no forwarding address. And those reasons do not preclude her ensuring the horse is well-cared for.

    I'm definitely adding the Standardbred Retirement Foundation to my list of places not to touch with a ten foot pole.
    Proud member of the EDRF



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    24,540

    Default

    There are some rescues out there that adopt with a sale clause. Second Stride in Kentucky transfers ownership outright, some other after 6 months to 2 years. I think a 6 month to 1 year waiting period is reasonable. Rescue owning for life...no way. It IS a long term foster situation, then.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2005
    Location
    Paris, Kentucky
    Posts
    3,203

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amchara View Post
    Wow, those people have some interesting ways of doing things. At this point if I missed the paperwork because of a major life upheaval, I'd be afraid to get back in contact with these people because they'd still take my horse.
    ummm, this. If the authorities are already involved, this woman is better off hiding from these people. She "forgot to fill out the 2010 form" EIGHTEEN years after she adopted the horse? So f-ing what! Why would she get in touch with them now, when they plan to take away HER horse and "retire her".
    Holly
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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 20, 2010
    Location
    All 'round Canadia
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    Default

    This was updated - the woman got back in touch, horse is fine, they're not taking the horse. The adopter is hiding from an abusive husband so...yeah, pretty freaking huge upheaval.

    I agree, I too wouldn't adopt without transfer of ownership. Check me out all you want initially, if I liked the horse I'd even be ok with a short term before ownership came to me just to make sure I wasn't going to flip the horse as soon as I got it. But having it for 18 years and still being under threat of having it taken away because I forgot some paperwork is ridiculous.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2004
    Location
    Whidbey Is, Wash.
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    10,715

    Default

    I'd be after the agency for harassment or stalking, if I was that lady and found all this out. Possibly even civil penalties of defamation, etc. Incredible.

    And like others have pointed out, also a good reason that I'll probably NEVER adopt a horse. Or a dog, to be honest. We got turned down for a dog from the local low-kill shelter because we already had two dogs.
    COTH's official mini-donk enabler

    "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2010
    Location
    Horse Heaven
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    2,174

    Default

    Great the harassing hubbie can search her name on BBs threads that post actual names. That is not okay.
    Last edited by Justa Bob; Jan. 19, 2011 at 04:27 PM. Reason: clarify



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2009
    Posts
    5,727

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Bob View Post
    Great the harassing hubbie can search her name and find these threads. That is not okay.
    That crossed my mind as well, but there's nothing in this thread that could really do any damage.

    It's still disturbing. I "adopted" both of my dogs and if something happens where I can no longer care for them, of course I'll contact the rescue. But they are MY dogs.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2001
    Location
    Alaska. Not in an Igloo.
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    8,994

    Default

    Perhaps this adoption group can team up with "Mane and Tails" and become the SUPER COTH STALKERS!
    Seig Heil Polo Shirt!



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