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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2011
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    Default Question about a Judging Card

    HI! I am new here!

    I have been competing dressage and the way dressage is judged - it is broke down very clearly on points, priority and what is specifically being judged. I also rode jumpers for a long time but was forced to do dressage due to an injury (I love dressage though) - and have been cleared to go back to jumping - I was in Europe so I am new to the hunter thing. I got a new horse who is an ex-eventer and wanted to take him to some hunter shows - the low level work for now.

    I have heard about a 'judging card' and wondered if there is a breakdown on what is specifically being judged? Like are points awarded for soft hands or taken away for missed leads - etc - like what is more important? Is there an official breakdown?

    Is there like an official judging card I have heard people talk about?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
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    Keswick, VA
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    For the hunters, you as an exhibitor don't get to see the judge's card. You might be able to if you make a request through the steward, but it's not really something you're supposed to do.
    It wouldn't be of much use to you anyway, since the structure of the card is specific to the judge and probably wouldn't make a lot of sense. Most judges use a personal system of marks and notations to indicate the quality of the jumps and make note of errors, together with a running placement tally of exhibitor numbers. Some give each round an overall score on the card even if the class isn't one that announces open numerical scoring, but not all do.
    There isn't an official breakdown, as hunter scoring is more of a judging of overall appearance than a tallying of points.



  3. #3
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    Default

    What CBoylen said. As usual.



  4. #4
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    Well, I may not judge, but Dave Kelley taught me how to mark my card, and I haven't forgotten!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Default

    It's always good to learn from the best.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2007
    Location
    Landrum, SC
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    Default

    OP... The rules for our Hunter divisions, including a breakdown of major and minor faults to be considered by the judge as he/she forms an opinion of each round, can be found at www.usef.org

    Look for the Rule Book in the side menu.
    Athletic Horses. Educated Riders.
    www.Ride-With-Confidence.com



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2007
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    592

    Default

    If you go to the web site "ask the horse show judge" and pay the fee, you'll hear how judges mark their cards. Very few use a numberical score unless show management asks for it



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAW View Post
    If you go to the web site "ask the horse show judge" and pay the fee, you'll hear how judges mark their cards. Very few use a numberical score unless show management asks for it
    I beg to differ.

    Many, if not most judges use numerical scores to keep track of the rounds. The fact that the scores are not announced all the time does not mean the entries are not receiving scores.



  9. #9
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    Mar. 1, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    I beg to differ.

    Many, if not most judges use numerical scores to keep track of the rounds. The fact that the scores are not announced all the time does not mean the entries are not receiving scores.
    These judges on this site stated that many judges do not give a score, but merely list the horses with the best rounds in a ranking that gives them room to add better rounds. This surprised me too.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 20, 2007
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    534

    Default

    I do squiggles/letters and other grafitti for each fence and sometimes what occurs between the fences,then a general remark or three and perhaps something to help me recall that horse should I be asked about it later, and finish with a numerical score. I don't mind posting cards, if that is the show routine. People try harder when they see they lost on a place beacuse of 1 or 2 points (or less) so the numbers mean something to them, even if the art work doesn't.
    Really, most people know what they could have done better... even the winner )



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 19, 2007
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    822

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostboy View Post
    I don't mind posting cards, if that is the show routine.
    I am guessing you are talking about unrated shows? But IMO it would be great if this happened at rated ones!
    Please don't sabotash my conchess.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2008
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    My old trainer was a judge, and when she talked about judging (this is Canada, mind you) she talked about specific symbols that had fairly equivalent point deductions. These were for things like adding strides, leaving out, lead swap, late change, cut corners, breaking gait (or failing to trot in a class that called for it), wiggly line, crooked approach/take off...she was kind of an analytical personality though, so that might have just been her interpretation of what she was taught. As she progressed through her judging training and certifications, she was required to turn in her cards and have them audited, so it makes sense that there was some kind of system taught.

    I got the impression that your basic errors had common symbols and generally accepted deduction values, much like in Dressage, and then the judge looked at the overall trip and awarded points accordingly. I know my coach also used symbols to denote "good" things, like a nice tight jump, straight line, etc.

    It is also uncommon in Canada to even hear scores announced (more common the larger the show) and VERY uncommon that a judge would turn over a card to a competitor. At a schooling or small local show though, a lot of judges would be open to the idea of reviewing a round with you, provided you approached them politely when they were not busy and explained that you wanted to understand the scoring.

    As others said, the competitor usually knows why they lost the big marks...for me it is ALWAYS that I missed a lead somewhere. I once thought to ask a judge about ways I could improve and she basically said "come talk to me once you sort out your leads" and I was all "yeah, probably shouldn't have asked on that one..."
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  13. #13
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    Mar. 1, 2007
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    Default

    Most judges don't mind discussing your rounds after the show ended for the day as long as a Steward is present and the rider's trainer is present. They will not discuss your rounds against another rider(s)



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2011
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    Default

    THANK YOU!

    I like what is described in Canada. I think it would be great if the judges did post a final number score that was consistent from every way a certified judge judged so you can compare how you did from show to show. I love that about dressage and gymnastics - (I have a 6 year old daughter in gymnastics).

    Wonder why that is not done in judge certification?

    I guess I am such a control freak - I like to know exactly what to work on! LOL



  15. #15
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    Jan. 30, 2010
    Location
    Alberta
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    Default

    Some hunter judges don't even bother judging you once they know you are out of ribbon contention... not like dressage where they have to keep watching/scoring regardless.



  16. #16
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    Jan. 12, 2011
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    Melissa Hare Jumper:

    f. In classics and when a class is held on an outside course, brilliance should be
    emphasized.

    This was written in the rule book under judging. What does brilliance mean? Do you know?



  17. #17
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    Jan. 27, 2003
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    CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joannie Jumper View Post
    Melissa Hare Jumper:

    f. In classics and when a class is held on an outside course, brilliance should be
    emphasized.

    This was written in the rule book under judging. What does brilliance mean? Do you know?
    For me, Brilliance is a forward pace with an expressive jump and ring presence. The horse that makes you sit up and watch.

    OP, you might want to pick up Anna Jane White Mullen's book "Judging Hunters and Hunter Seat Equitation". It's a great resource for what's expected as does give you some common notations judge use. There is also a DVD out called "The Judge's Eye" that goes through different rounds and the judge talks you through how she would judge it.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  18. #18
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    Jul. 17, 2007
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    Landrum, SC
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    What rugbug said about "brilliance". And I second AJWM's book and Linda Andrisani's videos. Great learning tools.

    - Melissa Hare Jones (but I like "Jumper", too)
    Athletic Horses. Educated Riders.
    www.Ride-With-Confidence.com



  19. #19
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    Apr. 26, 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
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    Default

    As far as I know, the only "set" scores are for a refusal, a break in gait, and a rail. Everything else is judges discretion.

    That's why you can't just say, for example, that a chip is worth x number of points off. One judge's chip is another ones "a little tight." Some horses still jump great from a tight distance. Some fall apart and jump like crap. Is that distance a little long, too long, dangerously long, or "brilliant?" Is a little long better than a little tight? Does your horse jump better from a long distance than that other horse did from a "perfect" distance? For lack of a better phrase (and not wanting to start a debate about it), some like a WB kind of look and trip, and some like a TB type.

    And every horse isn't stepping in that ring with an equal playing field. My perfect trip may be worse that your perfect trip. Maybe your horse is so much nicer than mine that I can have a perfect trip and you can make a few minor errors and still beat me. That's how it goes!

    That's why they say that you're paying for the opinion of one certain person on one certain day. You might have the same trip but tomorrow's judge might like you more. Or less.

    And yeah, if the judge has 8 "clean" trips and 8 ribbons and you come in and biff the first fence, it is not unheard of that the judge will stop watching you, unless it is a classic and they have to score you.

    Last weekend I had a chip and was beaten by someone who added up in a line. That was that judge's preference. Another judge may have swapped us.

    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    My old trainer was a judge, and when she talked about judging (this is Canada, mind you) she talked about specific symbols that had fairly equivalent point deductions. These were for things like adding strides, leaving out, lead swap, late change, cut corners, breaking gait (or failing to trot in a class that called for it), wiggly line, crooked approach/take off...she was kind of an analytical personality though, so that might have just been her interpretation of what she was taught. As she progressed through her judging training and certifications, she was required to turn in her cards and have them audited, so it makes sense that there was some kind of system taught.

    I got the impression that your basic errors had common symbols and generally accepted deduction values, much like in Dressage, and then the judge looked at the overall trip and awarded points accordingly. I know my coach also used symbols to denote "good" things, like a nice tight jump, straight line, etc.

    It is also uncommon in Canada to even hear scores announced (more common the larger the show) and VERY uncommon that a judge would turn over a card to a competitor. At a schooling or small local show though, a lot of judges would be open to the idea of reviewing a round with you, provided you approached them politely when they were not busy and explained that you wanted to understand the scoring.

    As others said, the competitor usually knows why they lost the big marks...for me it is ALWAYS that I missed a lead somewhere. I once thought to ask a judge about ways I could improve and she basically said "come talk to me once you sort out your leads" and I was all "yeah, probably shouldn't have asked on that one..."
    Quote Originally Posted by Joannie Jumper View Post
    THANK YOU!

    I like what is described in Canada. I think it would be great if the judges did post a final number score that was consistent from every way a certified judge judged so you can compare how you did from show to show. I love that about dressage and gymnastics - (I have a 6 year old daughter in gymnastics).

    Wonder why that is not done in judge certification?

    I guess I am such a control freak - I like to know exactly what to work on! LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2002
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    Alberta, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    I beg to differ.

    Many, if not most judges use numerical scores to keep track of the rounds. The fact that the scores are not announced all the time does not mean the entries are not receiving scores.
    She's right. Most "seasoned" judges do not bother writing a score down for each round...and just do what was described above - simple write down a "ladder" of the competition numbers and leave room for rounds to squeeze in between. As long as you have a good system for marking rounds, scores are not a necessity...unless they are required to be announced.
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