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  1. #1
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    Dec. 1, 2008
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    Question TB mare w/ tattoo... How do you get papers?

    Is there any way to use a mare's tattoo to get papers from the Jockey Club so you can present a mare to a WB registry for approval?

    Any advice is appreciated!
    Megan



  2. #2
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    Mar. 10, 2009
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    I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that even if you know the registered name and tattoo number, if you weren't given the official papers from the person you purchased the horse from, you are up a creek..... That is why often times trainers at the track won't give papers when you buy a cheap horse from them, it prevents the horse from ever racing again.



  3. #3
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    Jun. 2, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by chestnutwithchrome View Post
    I could be wrong
    You aren't wrong unfortunately. With JC the papers belong to the person, not the horse, so they do not have to remain with the horse like they do with many other breed registries.

    The only way to get the papers for a JC TB is to try to get the owner on file with the JC, to give them to you or if they have lost them then ask them to get them reissued by the JC.



  4. #4
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    Feb. 3, 2005
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    Southern Ontario
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    But....if you read the bottom of the JC papers it says "Certificate to be preserved and transferred to purchaser gratis if this horse is sold. Possession and presentation of this certificate is a requirement to race or breed the horse it identifies. Record transfer on reverse side."

    So I know that people withhold the papers so the horse cannot race again, but 'technically' that is not how it is supposed to be according to the papers themselves. It's too bad that some kind of non-racing papers couldn't be issued in just these types of cases.

    We have been very lucky over the years that anything we acquire from the track has had papers...mares and gelding alike! Won't leave with the horse unless the papers are in our hands.



  5. #5
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    Nov. 2, 2000
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    Actually, I just had quite the opposite experience with the JC. I was trying to acquire papers for a friend's mare whose papers were long since lost many owners prior to the current owner. The owner per the JC records was still the original owner/breeder (and the mare is 24!), but we provided proof of current ownership (bill of sale), as well as a notarized reason for the loss of the papers and other book keeping items (e.g., markings, cowlicks, pictures). I will strongly recommend that you establish communication with a person in the JC office and follow through with that person. Also, make sure every I is dotted and T crossed and that every piece of information is consistent and accurate.

    The JC person I worked with flat out stated that they are not an ownership organization which makes a lot of sense given the number of times TBs change hands.

    I will also say that I was candid with the lady from the very beginning and told her that I needed the papers so that the mare could be used to produce sport horses and had no interest in the track, so maybe that helped the cause? I also sort-of mentioned that without her registration papers, her TB lineage would never be given the credit it deserves

    Best of luck!



  6. #6
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    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    And this is the #1 reason I wish the JC would somehow find a way to provide certified parentage information to horses with no papers, but a tattoo. With the Tat there is no denying who the horse is (as long as it's legible) - there should be a non racing pedigree of some sort available for this reason.

    I fully understand and respect why some trainers and owners opt to not provide foal papers at the time of sale when a horse is not to race again, but some sort of purebred Thoroughbred registry that actually tracks parentage and is taken seriously by the WB regs would be wonderful.
    -Jessica



  7. #7
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
    Actually, I just had quite the opposite experience with the JC. I was trying to acquire papers for a friend's mare whose papers were long since lost many owners prior to the current owner. The owner per the JC records was still the original owner/breeder (and the mare is 24!), but we provided proof of current ownership (bill of sale), as well as a notarized reason for the loss of the papers and other book keeping items (e.g., markings, cowlicks, pictures). I will strongly recommend that you establish communication with a person in the JC office and follow through with that person. Also, make sure every I is dotted and T crossed and that every piece of information is consistent and accurate.

    The JC person I worked with flat out stated that they are not an ownership organization which makes a lot of sense given the number of times TBs change hands.

    I will also say that I was candid with the lady from the very beginning and told her that I needed the papers so that the mare could be used to produce sport horses and had no interest in the track, so maybe that helped the cause? I also sort-of mentioned that without her registration papers, her TB lineage would never be given the credit it deserves

    Best of luck!
    Perhaps you don't even realize you said the magic words? Papers were long lost and you provided a notarized statement to that fact. Most people have no idea where the papers are or what happened to them so they would be forced with lying on a notarized document or not getting the papers unless the person holding them provides them for them.



  8. #8
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    Nov. 28, 2003
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    Oldenburg NA will inspect a TB mare without papers. You need to do the tattoo research and provide them with the pedigree. Then they will check the tattoo against that paperwork and accept her based on that. I did it with a mare several years ago.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
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    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Perhaps you don't even realize you said the magic words? Papers were long lost and you provided a notarized statement to that fact. Most people have no idea where the papers are or what happened to them so they would be forced with lying on a notarized document or not getting the papers unless the person holding them provides them for them.
    But that is the very definition of "lost:"

    no longer in your possession or control; unable to be found or recovered



    In many cases, people just have no idea why their horse does not have papers so is that lying? They are simply trying to do the best for their horse and her offspring.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
    But that is the very definition of "lost:"

    no longer in your possession or control; unable to be found or recovered

    Presuming they were ever in your possession in the first place. Otherwise you are just lying on a legal document because you have no idea where they are.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Presuming they were ever in your possession in the first place. Otherwise you are just lying on a legal document because you have no idea where they are.
    Yes that's the problem. You either lie (and hope the real papers never show up) on a notarized statement or you try to find the person who shows as owner or you forget about the papers.

    I very recently had this happen. I was very lucky that the breeder of my mare is still the owner on file, so I contacted her and she is in the process of getting re-issued papers which she will pass onto me.

    I knew I could get re-issued papers if I lied about their whereabouts but I was not happy doing this under oath so I took the long way around.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AppJumpr08 View Post
    And this is the #1 reason I wish the JC would somehow find a way to provide certified parentage information to horses with no papers, but a tattoo. With the Tat there is no denying who the horse is (as long as it's legible) - there should be a non racing pedigree of some sort available for this reason.

    I fully understand and respect why some trainers and owners opt to not provide foal papers at the time of sale when a horse is not to race again, but some sort of purebred Thoroughbred registry that actually tracks parentage and is taken seriously by the WB regs would be wonderful.
    Ditto this. The JC needs to " join the world " so our TBs get credit for who they are!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  13. #13
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    I guess I'm confused as to making the truthful statement of not knowing the whereabouts of a horses papers are is lying.
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponygirl View Post
    I guess I'm confused as to making the truthful statement of not knowing the whereabouts of a horses papers are is lying.
    Basically the problem is, the JC do not want more than one valid set of papers for each horse floating about out there somewhere, so you have to know what actually happened to the original papers. If the owner on file says that they ripped them up on the sale of the horse then that's fine and that owner can state under oath that they destroyed the papers (for example) and they will be able to get new ones reissued. Just saying that they are "lost" isn't usually good enough to warrant JC to reissue.



  15. #15
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    I think a lot of this "lying" discussion is situation-based. If a person had purchased the mare direct from a trainer who wasn't handing over the papers b/c he didn't want the horse on the track and then that person contacts the JC stating the papers were lost, then we are talking about lying.

    BUT, if that same mare is then sold and owner 3 or 4 or 5-post trainer wants to breed the mare, I don't see at all how saying they are lost is lying unless they've been specifically told the papers were withheld.

    Let's be honest, there is general apathy towards registration papers on the part of many sport horse competitors and trainers in this country. This would lead one quickly and easily to the conclusion that papers were lost, misplaced, never handed over b/c nobody asked, etc. Heck, it happens all the time with high-dollar WBs purchased out of Europe, so why not with the $1K OTTB?

    As long as there are no ill-intentions or explicit attempts to deceive, why is it "lying" when somebody is simply trying to do right by the mare and its offspring? The person is simply working with the limited information they probably will ever have.

    And quite frankly, I would tell the JC person I spoke to that I am the Nth owner of said mare and that I am trying to get duplicate reg papers that have been "lost" over the years and work from there. I'm sure they are very well aware of all the things that happen to JC papers when they've been sold outside of the racing industry.

    In our specific case, we were asking for dups because the papers were lost when the original breeding farm shut down, but regardless, my experience with the JC was extremely positive. They were helpful and understanding and we had dup papers within 3 days from the day I dropped off the forms at their office.

    I'd really recommend giving them a call and establish a candid rapport with the JC rep and work from there. It certainly can not hurt!



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