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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    Ahhh...and then it comes back to being between a rock and a hard place, Robin . If one reports a vet that you KNOW is doing illegal and unethical procedures, suddenly it can become difficult to get vet care for your animals! With the number of large animal vets declining rapidly, there are just fewer and fewer out there and some of them "do" hang together and definitely talk! We're fortunate in that our own vet here does NOT tolerate unethical behavior and will report her peer if she is aware of inappropriate behavior. It's why she "is" our vet. But, if you're in an area where there are only a small number of vets, what to do? Believe me, I'm not condoning turning your head, but I definitely "do" understand why it is done. And being aware of what is being done and having sufficient "proof" to be able to report it can be two very different things <sigh>.
    Oh God ain't this the truth. I won't even bother going into what goes on around here, it would take a book. I am just thankful every single day that I am within an hour driving distance to UC Davis vet school. It's not perfect, and dealing with a vet hospital has it's drawbacks, but the vets are so wonderful and ethical and honest! This is a absolute true story, but I spent $60k on a rig just so I can haul to Davis rather than use any of the local vets.



  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    And I guess what really riles me the most is if any of us buy this nice youngster or mare or stallion prospect and what we see in front of us is a perfectly correct, straight individual and then foal after foal pops out with legs as crooked as pretzels, you really have to wonder then, after spending years and thousands and thousands of dollars, if that individual was stripped or cosmetically corrected once upon a time? And the person YOU bought them from may not have had any idea either unless they were the actual breeder and did the correction themselves ...
    or the straight legged one was a fluke OR the animal simply cannot breed true...which is why it's a "prospect" to begin with....

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    Cash Robin. No invoices. No proof. No way of "outing" them None. And your legal bills would be huge and you wouldnt win anyhow ...

    There is also another track vet who accepts *cash* and the horse is given a substance that is naturally occuring in the body but if given in high enough amounts will cause cardiac arrest. Upon a necropsy being done, nothing is shown to be out of the ordinary at all. Insurance is then paid out

    Again - all cash deals and no one is talking. There is NO paper trail Robin. None at all

    And I guess when your solid coloured Paint foal is worth $500.00 - $1000.00 and if it had that 2" white spot it would be worth $5000.00 - $10,000.00 and all it costs is a few hundred dollars cash to make that happen, guess what? You sure as shooting will have people that find that option a very desirable one and since both sides of the equation have lots to gain AND lose, no one is going to say a word about it. And your stallion will have the desirable reputation of siring a high percentage of colour on his babies as well which leads to more and more stud revenues for the owners

    Do you ever wonder WHY the vet hospitals are FILLED each spring / summer with youngsters getting stripped or having check ligament surgery done??? Why - so when the buyers at the yearling sales the next fall see the PERFECT STRAIGHT specimens standing in front of them, they bid them up to maximum dollar values!

    And "out them"??? Hell Robin - you'd probably have a huge percentage of every large TB and SB breeding farm on the list to "out". It seems to be a VERY common practice, especially where large yearling sales revenues are at stake as well as the reputation of the stallion himself for producing high revenue babies.

    Tail and ear nerving is VERY illegal in the APHA and AQHA circuits. Does it still happen? You betcha it does ... So is soring the Walking horses, sticking ginger in the anuses of the Saddlebreds and Hackneys and God knows what else people do to win their classes. Just how many people out there do you propose we "out"???

    And yeah Wynn - what goes on in the horse world is NOTHING compared to what happens in the dog world on a regular basis ...

    And thanks Kathy and PP - it really and truly does stink in every possible way. And I guess what really riles me the most is if any of us buy this nice youngster or mare or stallion prospect and what we see in front of us is a perfectly correct, straight individual and then foal after foal pops out with legs as crooked as pretzels, you really have to wonder then, after spending years and thousands and thousands of dollars, if that individual was stripped or cosmetically corrected once upon a time? And the person YOU bought them from may not have had any idea either unless they were the actual breeder and di the correction themselves ...

    If you buy a horse as a stallion prospect, it has hopefully been to get branded, inspected etc as a foal. So, if it was that crooked, it didnt get deemed worthy of prospect material. Or if you know stallions, mares, and bloodlines, you know who is throwing crooked, and how, and whether or not you can live with that. ( At least in the registries I want to deal with).
    Same for the mares. Normal birth crooked is acceptable, after that, it wont have done well at inspection if it is still not correct.
    For the TB people, the industry needs an overhaul- maybe this would be a way to do it, I dont know, and am not going down that road.

    For the cosmetic stuff, sorry- just because it is done, doesnt make it right.
    And if your vet talks to another vet about you taking a stand, and then you get no service, then you can talk to the AVA or whatever it is called in USA.
    I have done it here, on other matters; held vets accountable, even hospital clinics, and guess what- everyone says " dont do it, you wont have vet service anymore, etc", yet all is well here.

    If you arent comfortable calling in the powers that be, then at least you can tell the clinic where said vet is working that you dont want this vet because of xxx factor.

    Everytime people accept to be bullied into turning their head, they become part of the problem.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    This is a absolute true story, but I spent $60k on a rig just so I can haul to Davis rather than use any of the local vets.
    Really? $60k on a rig and a few grand for a pony...get your priorities straight woman, that's a LOT of ponies you could've bought! Interesting turn your thread has taken, but they seem to do that, don't they?


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  5. #45
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    Mar. 11, 1999
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    PP, if you are in the market for a hony, a foal out of one of my mares, sold as a baby, is on the market because he didn't get big enough. He is four this year. I'll put you in touch with his owner if you pm me. I loved this guy, and he had super movement.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  6. #46
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    Really? $60k on a rig and a few grand for a pony...get your priorities straight woman, that's a LOT of ponies you could've bought! Interesting turn your thread has taken, but they seem to do that, don't they?
    Well to be fair, 45k of the rig was cloaked as a "present" for my DH (a brand new GMC Duramax). But it was all done because of a nightmare I had with the local vets. Haulers in the area charge $200-$300 each way to haul to Davis.

    The problem has never ever been about buying horses or ponies, it's about what it costs to keep them when you live within spitting distance of a major metropolitan area and don't own your own property. My expenses (without lessons) for just board, turnout and farrier run about $1000/month/horse and that is typical of the area for decent care. My Hanoverian mare is nearly 3 hours away so she can live on a safe pasture with good care for a reasonable price.



  7. #47
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    Jul. 18, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    just offhand but,my vet has to use 2 to 3 times the juice to make mine sleepy

    Tamara in TN
    Same here. Our vet was doing a stem cell treatment and gave our pony several injections. His head was nearly dragging on the ground. When she went to give him the block in his front leg, he kicked her with his back leg - just standing on his two right legs.

    As far as vets and folks doing things to ponies to get them qualified as ponies, the vet who measured and carded our pony said that a lot of folks will take off the shoes and trim the hooves WAY down to lower the height to get their card.

    In regard to cosmetic stuff, I've heard some folks do something to the tail dock to make it stick out or something - not really sure. We were wondering if someone did that to our pony as he is a dark bay but has white hair coming out near the top of his dock. Of course, his dad is a paint with lots of spots, so maybe that's just his natural markings.

    Our pony is 14.1, but both his father and grandfather were 13.1.



  8. #48
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    There will always be cheaters, but there needs to be accountability as well. The MAJORITY of vets would not perform the illicit and unethical procedures described here, nor would they shun those who acted to expose them. I would like to think that the majority of true horsemen would NOT choose to look the other way.

    Fraud is a criminal offense, not just a violation of the rules. An examination of the animals in question would certainly yield enough evidence of tampering that a "paper trail" would be unecessary. Inaction to the extent described by TC is abhorrent to anyone with even a slight degree of integrity, one reason it is easier for some to look the other way than it is for others.

    Talk, though it can add drama, is VERY cheap, isn't it?


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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    You guys are kidding, right???? Any time money is involved, especially high dollars, people are going to do unethical, illegal, immoral things to get their cut of the pie. That's just a fact of life. Wither shaving and injecting tails are just two of the numerous "cosmetic" procedures that are done and as long as people are willing to pay to have it done, there are going to be people out there willing to do the procedure. What about the vet(s) that did numerous ET's and breedings and when the resulting foals weren't up to snuff, they were sacrificed. Yup...that one had his license suspended. Or those that will put in a "neutical" on a cryptorchid stallion so no one is the "wiser"? Or what about riders that use drugs to get the horse through a performance? What about the "trainers" that use Regumate to make stallions more manageable? Or the ones that use a magnesium "cocktail" to make them nice and quiet? Yeah, it happens. And some big name trainers and competitors do it! Yeah...I'm like most of you here that are appalled at it. But as long as owners are willing to allow their animals to be drugged, managed and "trained", breeders are willing to pay for "cosmetic" procedures, and everyone is willing to keep their mouths' shut, it "will" continue. Heck just read the suspended list of the USEF and you'll get a good idea of how often unethical things are done! And those are just the individuals that are caught!

    With that said, I can't say how many times I've watched on these boards where people jump on the individuals such as the above, that bring such things to light. It's a no win situation. If you say something publicly, some people think you should be tar and feathered for expecting people to behave in an ethical, moral manner. And yet those same individuals will howl from the rooftops if they feel they've been "wronged" and no one told them before that a breeder or a vet was unethical. If you don't say anything, you're essentially condoning the behavior and allowing the things to continue. Heck...go read the thread on OCD and Ethics and you'll get an idea of just how divided people are and how willing they are to accept or deny what is stated good or bad without verifying the veracity of the information presented!! TrueColors did not name names. Just said it was done by a vet in her area. No slander there...just a heads up folks. Getting sufficient information and proof to be able to report that person to the vet board is a whole 'nother thing.

    Jos and I regularly have the discussion that if you don't police yourselves, someone else "will" do it for you! We've heard the horror stories - and from those directly involved! But proving it is a whole 'nother can of worms. So my advice - which combined with a dollar, "might" get you a cup of coffee - don't support the individuals you KNOW are guilty of the unethical behavior. Verify it first. Do your homework. Ask questions. And, go to the source and ASK!!! If a vet is actually doing the procedure and you show up and say "hey! I've heard you'll shave withers on my pony? Will and do you?". What do you think is going to be his/her reaction? If they're actually doing it, he/she may say..yeah sure...and you then have your answer and can proceed from there. Or they may give you the deer in the headlights look and deny it, but it will give them a heads up that they're on the radar and hopefully will cease and desist. Or, they may honestly deny it and a dialog can ensue from there.

    I'm still in awe that so many people here are surprised that there are dishonest and unethical people out there in the horse business!
    I am fully aware of how unethical this business is, and I have been involved on two separate occasions with turning in people for that behavior. If I raised horses of color, and I had the evidence that a vet was adding color to make them registrable, I would certainly take steps to do something about it. We will just have to agree to disagree, because I do believe in doing what I can to maintain the highest degree of integrity possible.
    Robin B. Greenwood be MERRY, DAMMIT
    I just see things differently
    www.hunterponies.com



  10. #50
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    Well, I guess now we know what happens to some oversized ponies



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponybreeder View Post
    I am fully aware of how unethical this business is, and I have been involved on two separate occasions with turning in people for that behavior. If I raised horses of color, and I had the evidence that a vet was adding color to make them registrable, I would certainly take steps to do something about it. We will just have to agree to disagree, because I do believe in doing what I can to maintain the highest degree of integrity possible.
    Oh no. You misunderstand what I am saying. We DEFINITELY advocate turning in vets to vet boards, trainers to the USEF, etc., whenever you have knowledge and proof of the unethical/illegal practices. My point was to also understand why some are reluctant to take steps. It's easy to make a move if you live in an area where there are lots of options and veterinarians available. Maybe not so easy when you live in a remote area and there are only one or two options available. . In an emergency when you need help and no one will come, it makes some choices considerably more difficult. My point is that if you are in that type of situation, doing everything you can to not support the businesses that you know aren't doing the right thing.
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  12. #52
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    Would be time to move, IMO.



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. O'Connor View Post
    Would be time to move, IMO.
    Oh now come on. Sometimes I wonder if people who say things like this live on a trust fund. Sure, just move.

    I honestly didn't expect this thread to turn into this (not that it isn't interesting!). So I guess the oversized ponies have shaved withers and butchered feet, and the small horses just pretend to be 16hh on the internet?


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  14. #54
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    If you are in an area that is remote from the services you need, and you feel that your choices are to compromise your integrity or risk the well being of your business assets, then, yes, it might be time to consider relocating to a more viable area.

    Not that I was faced with this type of choice, but I have moved operations a few times in response to various factors. No trust fund.

    When people act on principle, their wealth or lack thereof is simetimes not the foremost consideration, in fact, it often requires sacrifice.

    When you are making a decision based on business conditions, I'd say that a lack of reliable veterinary care would have to be taken into consideration if it is critical to your operation that you have access to it. The lack of a trust fund would make getting this decision right all the more critical, as there would be little room for error.


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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. O'Connor View Post
    There will always be cheaters, but there needs to be accountability as well. The MAJORITY of vets would not perform the illicit and unethical procedures described here, nor would they shun those who acted to expose them. I would like to think that the majority of true horsemen would NOT choose to look the other way.
    I agree. MOST people and MOST Vets and MOST riders will opt to do the right thing and are honest and ethical. The problem is how it all is reported and followed. Unless you have irrefutable proof, it just doesn't go anywhere <sigh>. All part of our legal system of innocent until PROVEN guilty. which of course, is as it should be. But the flip side is that it becomes cumbersome and difficult to prove things, as well. While the vet boards will investigate, it's done by letters back and forth. The vet gets to respond to the allegations and again, that's as it should be. But it's not just a cut and dry report and be done. And with society being as litigious as it is, the process is wrought with landmines and pitfalls.

    Fraud is a criminal offense, not just a violation of the rules. An examination of the animals in question would certainly yield enough evidence of tampering that a "paper trail" would be unecessary. Inaction to the extent described by TC is abhorrent to anyone with even a slight degree of integrity, one reason it is easier for some to look the other way than it is for others.
    I truly wish that things were that black and white <sigh>. But we can't even keep children out of the hands of abusers, so how are we going to put sufficient "bite" in our laws and rules to insure that someone doesn't perform something "cosmetic" to cheat the system? It's a fine line as we don't want witch hunts performed on individuals because someone "doesn't like them". But, we also want to insure that those that are guilty of illicit, illegal, unethical, etc., practices are sufficiently punished. Yes...it will ALWAYS be easier to look the other way. Always. But until there is also sufficient satisfaction and not just hand slaps, it's hard to justify for some to put their reputation and jobs on the line with the very real possibility of being sued in return for attempting to clean things up.

    Talk, though it can add drama, is VERY cheap, isn't it?
    But also talk can be the very best ammunition, no? . People just have to be willing to stand behind their statements and not just say things in an attempt to trash reputations And those that listen to the talk must also be willing to check the veracity of the accusations made.

    This truly is a subject we are passionate about. We would love to see more accountability on multiple levels, but holy smokes, does it ever open a HUGE Pandora's box! So, speak with your wallet. It's a voice EVERYONE hears
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. O'Connor View Post
    If you are in an area that is remote from the services you need, and you feel that your choices are to compromise your integrity or risk the well being of your business assets, then, yes, it might be time to consider relocating to a more viable area.
    Sure, if that business is your primary income, that would make sense. But what percentage of breeders are making a living at it? I would think many people breed as a hobby business. And believe it or not, if you're going to turn someone in for something like that, you'd better have some community support behind you... or a big trust fund to pay your lawyers. Speaking from experience, those sorts of things can be harder on the whistle blower than the criminal.
    ::If I was wrong don't you think I would know it?::



  17. #57
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    Um...sheepishly raising my hand here....I will happily take your funky sized equines and turn them in driving horses/ponies and save them from a host of atrocities! Send them my way!
    Kanoe Godby
    www.dyrkgodby.com
    See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.



  18. #58
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    Weenies and marshmellows anyone ?



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. O'Connor View Post
    Would be time to move, IMO.
    But some would say that's a cop out. Why not work to change things? It just isn't black or white. And, moving just isn't a viable, realistic option for probably most people here. It most emphatically wouldn't be for us. And who's to say that you're not just jumping from the fire to the frying pan? In case you think we lay down and roll over - nope. We're actively working with one of the State Representatives here to try and get things changed. But we also have a pretty darn good grasping, from traveling all over and working with vets and breeders, just how tough it can be to eek out a living sometimes. <grabbing a weenie from BaroquePony - quite rude of you not to offer me one and put me in the untenable position of just taking it, BP >
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  20. #60
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    Wow, TC, that is absolutely appalling. It must be incredibly painful to have withers ground down. Do you know how this guy creates white spots? Is it like a big freeze brand or something? People like this don't belong in horses.



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