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  1. #1
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    Default CORRECTION on new/proposed "HONY" Division summarized in COTH?

    I read about it in "In Stride" magazine [edited to correct where I saw it: It's in COTH this week], but I can't find any discussion about it. But then again, COTH's search function never works for me. Help, please? Thanks (and thanks to whoever pushed the idea through, too!).
    Last edited by pwynnnorman; Dec. 31, 2010 at 09:16 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I'm interested too since my current sales project is about the right size.

    All I could find in the rulebook was this though:

    HU106 Regular Hunter – Definition and Classifications.
    1. A Regular Hunter is a horse of any age and is not restricted by previous showing.
    2. The Green and Regular Sections may be divided into the following classifications:
    a. Small—not exceeding 15.2 and 1/2 hands.
    So it looks to me like it isn't a new division so much as the performance hunter divisions may be split by small/large.

    Hopefully someone else will find more info...



  3. #3
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    No, it's more than that, although it has one more step of approval before it would be implemented (in Dec 2011).

    Didn't anyone read "In Stride" this month? I'd think this could be a bid deal for more than just pony breeders. IMO, it has the potential to make showing at the top levels a little bit more affordable since it will no longer to be necessary to have the right sized horse--just the horse that's sized right for you. A lot of hony's, for example, may end up at the lower end of this "hony division's" size range, but many of those hony's will have been breed to be top pony hunters--and so may very well have just as much stride (for whatever distance they use in this division--I wonder what that will be, too) as the 15.2ers they might compete against.

    Eh, that's just the tip of the iceburg. I sure hope the lack of interest/knowledge here of this proposal and its progress through the system isn't a sign that it won't clear its last hurdle.
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  4. #4
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    I think the division has a limited appeal. People who already have the spectacular small honys may as well compete in the Ch/AAs. You might get a few who can't cut it in those divisions, but it will still be difficult to fill. Besides, if it does make it, the division will become like any other height limited hunter division. Only the horses 1/4 of an inch off of being oversize will be desirable. Those 14.3, 15hh 15.1 handers are going to be just as hard to sell as before.

    Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer. I really do wish this was the solution to the hony, I just don't think it will work.



  5. #5
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    But HunterRider, it DOES have support!

    I found it. It wasn't in "In Stride." It's in COTH this week, pg. 19, "Rules of Note":

    Passed
    If approved at the USEF Annual meeting these will go into effect Dec. 1 of 2011.
    ...The creation of a small hunter division for horses over 14.2h and under 15.2h...`
    Is there no one here aware of this???? That fact alone is super discouraging, after all the years that soooo many people have remarked about this "great gaping hole" in the sport (granted, the gaping hole was my language, but it got picked up by a lot of other people over the years).
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwynnnorman View Post
    But HunterRider, it DOES have support!

    I found it. It wasn't in "In Stride." It's in COTH this week, pg. 19, "Rules of Note":



    Is there no one here aware of this???? That fact alone is super discouraging, after all the years that soooo many people have remarked about this "great gaping hole" in the sport (granted, the gaping hole was my language, but it got picked up by a lot of other people over the years).
    Small Junior Hunters do well but they go to under 16 hands.

    When a Small Hunter division is offered it doesn't fill so no great gaping hole. Small horses have always been able to show in Childrens Hunters, Adult Amateur Hunter and Jumpers.
    A/O's, Green etc. etc.

    Don't mistake an article in COTH for support for a rule. USEF has to approve it first.
    Recently USHJA claimed that 91% of members wanted to Nationalize points for Zone divisions and standardize the specs for those divisions. And yes, there was a COTH article about that too. And that was going to happen like NOW. Didn't happen. USHJA will reevaluate for 2012. Yawn.

    Agree with HunterRider992



  7. #7
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    There used to be a small hunter division available at a few shows in VA, and I think MD? I don't know where you can still find it, but a few years ago Upperville still had it. It wasn't popular, because it's not a showcase division, so there is very little incentive to show in it unless you happen to have a small horse that needs a schooling division.



  8. #8
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    I think going into this expecting it to just fill immediately is unrealistic. The fact is that more and more people are buying horses that fit them, not just fit some preconceived notions of ideal size. What happened with the economy is changing things, even long-held traditions like show hunters can be expected to be affected in some way or another--and perhaps this is that way.

    Truth be told, I've sold as many large ponies to adult women as I have other sized ponies for hunters. A lot of us are finding there is a market. Indeed, I recall that this particular hony division idea was supported by Vince Dugan, someone who has been deep into making sales for a long time (and as a result, someone who, I would think, knows a bit about what people will buy and for what purpose).

    And, when you think about it--say, as someone NOT from within the horse industry...or even just not from within the traditional hunter industry--there's really no rational reason for the hole. Really, I mean it: think it through. The only reason is tradition. Try it this way: Ask, say, someone who rides Western pleasure to identify hunter divisions by size of horse. You give them a hint: "There are three divisions for juniors on ponies: up to 12.2, 12.3-13.2, and 13.3-14.2. Now I want you to guess what the divisions are for horses, ridden by juniors and categorized by height." Not one person outside of hunters will skip the hony height division. THAT is a "hole."

    Oh, sure, someone can rationalize the hole out of existence--to other traditionalists--but to outsiders thinking of coming in? Today? Nah. I think those people will just see it as another strange idiosyncrasy that might even make them question doing hunters instead of jumpers. (This is pure speculation, of course!)

    The only place the hole doesn't exist is in the minds of traditionalists, but I suspect that for those shows that are struggling a bit to get the numbers, or for those trainers who would like to get back that borderline client who can't afford the "ideal" sized mount, having a whack at filling that hole with paying participants probably sounds like an idea worth trying these days.

    More power to 'em, I say. Sure can't hurt to try...and i suspect you'll not find a single pony breeder against the idea either!

    (Actually, one friend of mine predicted that it's actually the WB folks who may have finally gotten enough clout to bring this about. Lots of importables out there who are super athletes but oversized for the U.S. traditional divisions. Lots of $$$ put into
    European "riding pony" stallions and into the breeding of large ponies who are great movers and jumpers, but can't get a toe-hold in the lucrative U.S. market because of the oversized risk...Indeed, I think my friend's speculation might be better than my own.)
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  9. #9
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    They used to call those Cob classes back in the 70s.



  10. #10
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    I hate to say it, but I can't see this filling. Most kids who have just come off a large pony are ready for a full sized horse horse. I didn't read the article, but I take it these jumps would be set at 3'?

    You have to get down the lines that are set on 12' strides whether you are on a large pony, small hunter (under 16hh) or large hunter (over 16hh). I don't see the advantage or need to add it to the already long show day.

    Now allowing adults to show the ponies at the same show as the kids would be nice!!!

    P.S. I live in Zone 9 (WA state) and we have 3' unrated open hunters that are split into small and large. I think the split here is under 16.2 and 16.2 and over. Those classes are HUGE. This area seems to have a huge fascination with hunters at that height.



  11. #11
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    As far as I can tell, the actual proposed change is to change the HEIGHT for the "Small Hunter" (aready in the rule book) from 3'6" to 3'.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #12
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    Its a bit tough to get the average 14.2 1/2 hony to boogie down the lines set for the 3'6". Shouldn't be much of a problem if its 3' and set on a 12' stride.

    In Washingon State (Zone 9) a Large Hunter is 16.0 and above, and jumps 3'. (My guy is 16.0 and a smidge.)



  13. #13
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    For so many years it has been "bigger is better" and the smalller horses were pushed to the side, too big for ponies, not enough size or step for the big divisions. So many riders that had moved up from the junior and pony classes having spent a lifetime riding, learning and jumping bigger fences and progressively bigger horses. Teeny little people on hulking great horses as the warmbloods became more and more popular. Huge sums of money being spent on these while again, the "hony" size, despite tons of limited talent being sold off cheaply.
    Fast forward to today where there is a growing population of adult beginner riders, who are fulfilling a dream of owning and showing a horse, some of these smaller women, many of them very uncomfortable on large horses with 13 foot strides. These folks are happy on their smaller statured crittters over smaller jumps and there are more and more of them coming along. They should be encouraged because it creates more entries at shows, creates a market for the small horses and gets more interested in riding in their comfort zone.
    So create a really small hunter division or have judges not penalize for adding strides and handicapping the size of the horse. I understand the argument for horses being able to march around the big divisions but I don't understand why those who are comfortable and enjoying themselves on the lower fences should be looked down upon or ignored. Times have changed and there needs to be room for all levels.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    Its a bit tough to get the average 14.2 1/2 hony to boogie down the lines set for the 3'6". Shouldn't be much of a problem if its 3' and set on a 12' stride.

    In Washingon State (Zone 9) a Large Hunter is 16.0 and above, and jumps 3'. (My guy is 16.0 and a smidge.)
    Actually, Kestrel, that's where my friend's reasoning comes in (intriguingly). In this country, what you say is true for your average, non-purpose-bred hony. But in Europe? NOoooooo. They've been breeding ponies to step over 3'6" for a long time because they don't have a hunter division to sort-of "stunt" (not meant to be derogatory) talent at height (and distance) for the sake of type. It will be interesting, however (if my friend's speculation is true), whether the WB ponies will have sufficient "type" to be competitive between the jumps. But my friend would also say that "type" is changing in the horse divisions anyway as hunters are going in higher frames than they used to due to--you can guess this one--the influx and influence of WBs (vs. the TB classic from which the longer, lower frame -- more suited to lasting all day out with the hounds -- arose).

    [That's probably a topic for another discussion, though: Has the winning hunter frame changed? Looking at the Derby horses, I'd say it sure has, but I can't say I'm any expert since I only have memories of pictures of the frame in, say, the 1970s and 1980s.]
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    As far as I can tell, the actual proposed change is to change the HEIGHT for the "Small Hunter" (aready in the rule book) from 3'6" to 3'.
    Janet, that's the information I'm trying to find. The little blurb in COTH (it's not an article, folks--just one line in a sidebar) didn't elaborate.

    Folks, I just want to FIND THE INFORMATION to judge the situation for myself. I'm a bit miffed (at USHJA) for making it so hard to find. I've searched the website to no avail. What am I missing? This is frustrating because, in a different world, it would be possible to find this information, find out who supports it, and HELP MAKE IT HAPPEN (regardless of naysayers, who, short of a thorough and scientific survey, it's not possible to know represent any kind of majority opinion).

    We each have a right to our own opinions and, in this sport, we should also have a right to put our shoulders behind whatever obstacles we'd like to see moved out of the way!

    Edited to add: Actually, Janet, the way COTH worded it, it sure sounds like a whole new division.
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  16. #16
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    If it's a new division it probably won't result in making things more affordable, but if offered by show managers (yet to be seen) would probably increase the value of the horses in this height category.

    Fine with me. Long overdue.



  17. #17
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    Default Hony division

    I think a 14.2.+ to 15.2 division is going to fill . If not on the "A" levels , certainly on the smaller show circuits and the local shows. Actually..I guess the people(like me) who would love to see this could go out and SPONSOR this class on a local level. If it starts to fill there, the bigger shows will pick it up. Its all a matter of $$ for these shows.Certainly trainers will want to go to the big shows, rather than the small, less than A rated, but if the classes are at the A shows, that means they can fill their trailer and stalls w/a few extra clients. I watch my friend go to shows to show the 3'9 division...only to get her call she is on her way home as the class didn't fill.(btw, all rated shows) I would gladly throw my 14.3+ horse on the trailer, if there was a division. I would like to see it open, NOT a Jr. division...unlike the Small. Jr.
    *Note to self: Call local shows and suggest sponsoring this class.
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  18. #18
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    I haven't heard of this but curiously enough a friend of mine and I joked about a "Hony" division earlier this year, and even thought of having a "hony" division at one of our local schooling show circuits. The problem w/ Honies is that many of them can't get down the big lines without looking like they're out of control. My friend has a beautiful jumper & mover he was supposed to be 14.1 but nope is a beautiful honey with no place to go.. My thinking is thst he's not alone. Why does everything have to be geared towards big Jrs or adults... there are plenty of smaller (and perhaps older) adults who might prefer the Hony size (that's my plan when the time comes) Perhaps when the idea of a new division which might improve the sport is greeted with enthusiasm rather than pessimism they might fill, they might not - geez aren't there plenty of shows were certain classes don't fill already?

    And remember if it is a USHJA division - they promote grass roots level of riding also could be a hony division would be grass roots...

    I'm liking the "cob" division name rather than Hony but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't sometimes COB short but stout (read: big stocky legs).

    Awhile back I stumbled across either a UK or Irish hunter type show prize list w/ cob division where the class spec criteria/judging was geared towards "safely carrying the nervous rider" Love it!



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    As far as I can tell, the actual proposed change is to change the HEIGHT for the "Small Hunter" (aready in the rule book) from 3'6" to 3'.
    There is no Small Hunter Division in the Rule Book.

    It is a way to divide sections if warranted.


    HU106 Regular Hunter – Definition and Classifications.
    1. A Regular Hunter is a horse of any age and is not restricted by previous showing.
    2. The Green and Regular Sections may be divided into the following classifications:
    a. Small—not exceeding 15.2 and 1/2 hands.
    b. Thoroughbred—registered in any stud book recognized by the Jockey Club.
    c. Non-thoroughbred—not registered as in (b).
    d. Three-year-olds
    e. Four-year-olds and over



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    And remember if it is a USHJA division - they promote grass roots level of riding also could be a hony division would be grass roots...
    The proposal is for a USEF division. There is no such thing as a USHJA division. If you mean an unrated show they can offer whatever they want, no need to have USEF approve the division. Same thing goes for Opportunity classes held at rated shows. You can make up whatever you want. Riders are suhbject to restrictions based on previous show experienced.



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