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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep. 26, 2008
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    731

    Default Semen Motility 20%

    If you were supplied semen at motility of 20% what would you do? Is it a suck it up thing or would / could you negotiate a better breeding. If you could negotiate how would you go about it? Be interested to hear of any ones story on this.
    This is a real question. Any advise would be helpful.



  2. #2

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    Can't help on the negotiating part but what stallion is this?



  3. #3
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    Sep. 26, 2008
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    Default

    No I won't name names but if he did come up here as a breeding prospect and no one else posted the info I would chime in.

    Reason not naming names is that it could be a one off thing and I don't like to run down stallions.



  4. #4
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    Aug. 2, 2005
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    Oxford, USA
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    Is 20% found in a lab or on at at-home microscope? CASA count or better?
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  5. #5
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    20% by very well respected vet - don't know if in a lab but I would think so.



  6. #6
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    Unless a vet is using some very expensive and sophisticated counting equipment I wouldn't put much weight in a percent. Use more straws to come up with the required number of motile sperm.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  7. #7
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    Nov. 11, 2002
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    The Cliffs of Insanity
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    I got a shipment last summer with 30% motility... I'm still paying off the vet bills and there's no foal to show for it... I would like to mention the breeding was free since the very nice stallion owner loves my mare and knows a foal out of her would be great promotional material for her young stallion... So all costs involved were incurred through vet costs only.


    \"For all those men who say, \"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free,\" here\'s an update for you: Nowadays 80% of women are against marriage. Why? Because women realize it\'s not worth buying an entire pig just to get a little sausage.\"-



  8. #8
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    Sep. 26, 2008
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    This is not about the vet. It is about how to deal with this issue if possible thanxs. Sakura yes the vet fees ...



  9. #9
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    Jan. 29, 2000
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    Brownsburg, VA
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    Default

    I'm assuming this is shipped, cooled? Not frozen?

    Could be an error in processing, could be a rusty load as we used to call it. And they should not have sent you a rusty load. THat's not nice.

    20% shipped cooled is probably enough to get it done, but I'd be wrestling with the costs to inseminate (as I think you are, and hence this post). It's early in the game. I'd call the SO, and say the motility is really poor - and I'd like to skip this cycle rather than breed. I would also not want to pay the collection fee.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  10. #10
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    Sep. 26, 2008
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    ahf sorry actually it was frozen should have mentioned that. Plus I probably should mention that there is options on the contract on purchasing more if mare doesn't go in foal. What I am interested in is how people have delt with this as obviously at that low rate you wouldn't want to buy more of that particular stallion's semen.



  11. #11
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    Mar. 11, 1999
    Location
    Clayton, CA USA
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    Default

    Was the stallion represented as having a certain post thaw motility percentage? I ask that question when I buy frozen, and if it arrived with 20% motility I wouldn't be very happy. Unless you have a contract that guarantees something, I don't think there would me much you could do about it, except not buy anymore.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 2, 2003
    Location
    Wynnewood, Oklahoma
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lolita1 View Post
    If you were supplied semen at motility of 20% what would you do? Is it a suck it up thing or would / could you negotiate a better breeding. If you could negotiate how would you go about it? Be interested to hear of any ones story on this.
    This is a real question. Any advise would be helpful.
    20% is just a part of the equation. What were the total number of sperm shipped? In other words, for shipped cooled semen, you want to have 500 million progressively motile sperm. So, if they shipped you 2500 million sperm, you'd be fine! It's NOT just about the progressive motility. You could have a stallion that ships at 90% PMS, but if they're only shipping you 100 million sperm...well...you do the math.

    One thing to also consider - it isn't until the PMS numbers drop below about 100 million that you begin to see a significant drop in the pregnancy rates. 500 million is at the point that things "top" out. Research shows that inseminating with MORE than 500 million PMS does not increase pregnancy rates. Nor do pregnancy rates drop much until you get below about 100 million. WAYYYyyy too much emphasis is put on just the motility. And believe me, during breeding season, there are times that I would be doing the happy dance if I had 20% PMS on semen we receive <sigh>.

    Edited to add that re: the negotiation, I would contact them as soon as I received the semen and voice my concerns. I would then say that I would wait until the mare was checked and see if we had a pregnancy. If not, I would request another shipment of semen at no charge.

    Hope that helps!
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  13. #13
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    Feb. 2, 2003
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    Default

    I just read your response regarding it being frozen. Was the 20% motility what YOUR vet stated it was, or was it what the post thaw evaluation report claimed it should be?

    When we freeze an ejaculate, we do a post thaw on ever single collection/freeze. We have no dog in the fight, so we want an accurate representation of what the semen looks like post thaw. The reason for this is twofold. One, because we STRONGLY recommend that semen not be commercially marketed if it is under the 30% threshold. And two, so that if the semen is shipped out and the receiving end of things claims that the semen is dead or considerably lower than anticipated, one can take the time to evaluate how the semen is being thawed, handled, etc., and hopefully improve on the technique that is being used on the receiving end of things.

    So, my question would be, what did the post thaw report claim that the semen "should" look like? If it stated higher than 20%, start talking to whoever thawed the semen. If the report stated that it should be 20%, start talking to whomever you purchased the semen from and tell them that you want semen that has a commercially acceptable expected thaw.
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2005
    Location
    Upper Midwest
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    Default

    Well I would voice my concerns to the SO. Did you happen to ask about it before ordering? If they told you a different level then that is going to give you more to discuss with SO than if it wasn't discussed. Does the contract guarantee a different level?

    Sending pm
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  15. #15
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    Sep. 26, 2008
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    Default

    Thank you Kathy for the information you have provided it is very useful.

    Thanks again



  16. #16
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    Default

    20% is what the vet stated.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolita1 View Post
    20% is what the vet stated.
    So now you need to review what the post-thaw motility was reported as being in the shipping documents that hopefully accompanied the shipment from the people that froze the semen. Once you do that, you may have a direction to consider as to where the "extra" motility (if there was any) went!

    Bear in mind too that with frozen semen, motility is not correlated to fertility (the same applies to a lesser degree with other forms of semen as well). One can have excellent motility and zero fertility, or poor motility and excellent fertility.

    One thing that you can guarantee as negatively affecting fertility though, is not putting the semen in the mare, no matter how low the motility!!

    Good luck!
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  18. #18
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    Sep. 26, 2008
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    Default

    Thanks again Kathy for the info you provided I have drawn up a list of things to find out in more detail and once all of this is understood will follow up with semen supplier. I just like to know more about a subject that I am not an expert on (which is what you have helped me with) before I enter into a conversation / situation such as this.



  19. #19
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    Sep. 19, 2008
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    Maxville, On
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    Default

    Very interesting. I have bought 3 doses of frozen and it was shipped directly to a very reputable Vet hospital and they called me just as they were about to breed my mare but the post thaw motility was only 7%... I had no back up plan, the mares was waiting to be bred and the semen if not good would have been thrown away anyway. So I said go for it... and as expected no pregnancy. Now I have two doses left in my tank... do I want to use it? And this was quite expensive semen too.

    I talked to the agent, phoned the SO, they said they would come back to me and never did. I just regret having bought three doses... And I don't understand, if I was a stallion owner I would have offered to take back the semen and offer another stallion instead.

    They just let me down.
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse



  20. #20
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    Nov. 28, 2003
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    MO
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    Default

    For those of you receiving the low motility semen, are you receiving paperwork with your shipments. I'm with Kathy on this; there should be paperwork that gives what the post-thaw motility should be and this usually comes with thawing instructions. If the paperwork is not matching what you are finding on the thawing end then there is usually (but not always) a problem with the thawing or evaluation procedure. If you aren't receiving paperwork then that is an entirely different issue, and one that I would be highly irritated about!
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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